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Author Topic:   The moons, eclipses, and timing
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3503 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 91 of 112 (531131)
10-16-2009 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Modulous
10-16-2009 8:35 AM


Re: Serious subjects
Then teach, don't bloviate and proselytize.

That works both ways. Don't lay your atheist trash on me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Modulous, posted 10-16-2009 8:35 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Modulous, posted 10-16-2009 9:32 AM Calypsis4 has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 92 of 112 (531144)
10-16-2009 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Calypsis4
10-16-2009 9:07 AM


partial lunar eclipse
That works both ways. Don't lay your atheist trash on me.

Indeed it does. I wasn't aware I was trying to convince you that you were wasting your life believing in god like you implied similarly to me. Sorry if I did - could you point it out so that I might try and avoid it in the future?

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Calypsis4, posted 10-16-2009 9:07 AM Calypsis4 has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 93 of 112 (531146)
10-16-2009 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Calypsis4
10-16-2009 9:04 AM


The truth of the matter
You are deliberately turning your mind away from the truth. You also resort to lies. Joel said nothing about whether the elcipse would be full or not. Why don't you even try to be honest and read the book for yourself?

I did. He doesn't actually say there would be an eclipse. He says that "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood". Which is not saying there would be an eclipse.

You lied again. You act as if you never heard of Matthew, John, or Peter.

I have heard of them. But we weren't talking about them were we? We were talking about reports of sun darkening. Any corroborating reports of the sun darkening isn't corroborating evidence of the crucifixion.

You cited scientific evidence which left YHWH out of the equation. I showed how the scientific evidence you cited doesn't corroborate your prophecy.

God planned it all, you blind fool

OK. But that doesn't address the fact that you cited scientific evidence which left YHWH out of the equation, not me. Nor does it address the fact that I showed you how the scientific evidence you cited doesn't corroborate your prophecy.

I've been in this long enough to know that if we were disucssing Julius Caesar, or Charlemagne, or Henry VII you would not be saying the ridiculous things you've said and you would think that so many evidences corroborating their lives would be remarkable.

I'm not disputing Jesus' existence. Nor am I disputing that he was God incarnate or that he was crucified. I am disputing that the things you cite as evidence for this in this thread that are on topic - counts as evidence for these things.

But like your comrades in unbelief you have a bigotry against the Lord who made you and you won't accept any facts of history that would necessitate such an acceptance.

Blah blah. I could turn this around and say that you are so bigoted against we unbelievers that you think that any criticism of you is because of our bigotry against Yahweh.

It doesn't address the problems with it only being a partial lunar eclipse that wasn't really visible in Israel.

It's a waste of time even going further with you because you don't care about the truth.

Are you suggesting that it was not a partial lunar eclipse?
That it was clearly visible in Israel?
That it turned the moon red?

Because the scientific evidence does not support these things, regardless of whether Christ died for my sins and regardless of whether I believe that and regardless of whether I care about the truth.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Edited by Modulous, : clarified a quote with some context


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Calypsis4, posted 10-16-2009 9:04 AM Calypsis4 has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6683
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 94 of 112 (531210)
10-16-2009 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Calypsis4
10-16-2009 9:04 AM


Re: Serious subjects
You act as if you never heard of Matthew, John, or Peter.

You do realize that the gospels were not really written by people that actually knew this guy don't you?

If you feel they were maybe you could show some evidence other than tradition.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 95 of 112 (533092)
10-28-2009 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Calypsis4
10-09-2009 5:26 PM


Lunar Eclipse
quote:
A lunar eclipse on April 3, A.D. 33, the day Jesus Christ died on the cross. Perfect timing by the God who ordained it all.

I don't see a reference in this thread to the 1983 article by Humphreys and Waddington ("Dating the Crucifixion," Nature v306, 22/29 Dec 1983), but I believe this is the original publication of these claims.

The authors interpreted the red moon of Joel's prophecy to be a lunar eclipse (a reasonable inference) and searched for lunar eclipses which would have been visible from Jerusalem between AD 26-26. They claim that there was only one eclipse in this period which occurred at Passover time, the one on 3 April AD 33. (This is not quite correct; the 25 April AD 31 eclipse also occurred at Passover, but this eclipse was only 35% complete versus a 60% eclipse in AD 33.) The AD 33 eclipse also occurred on a Friday, which is the traditional day for the crucifixion.

(A solar eclipse at Passover time is impossible, of course. Passover must always occur at a full moon, but a solar eclipse can only occur at a new moon.)

Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 5:26 PM Calypsis4 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Coragyps, posted 10-28-2009 8:41 PM kbertsche has responded
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5399
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 96 of 112 (533109)
10-28-2009 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by kbertsche
10-28-2009 5:25 PM


Re: Lunar Eclipse
searched for lunar eclipses which would have been visible from Jerusalem

As I pointed out upthread, the 33 AD eclipse was at best marginally observable from Jerusalem. The link to Espenak's page at NASA that Calypsis gave in the OP shows this - "fourth contact," which is the moment of the moon leaving the umbral shadow, was right after moonrise as seen from Israel. At best there would have been a nick out of the north edge of the moon, and in bright twilight at that.

Noticeable, if you were really looking, but not very exciting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by kbertsche, posted 10-28-2009 5:25 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1390 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 97 of 112 (533111)
10-28-2009 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Calypsis4
10-15-2009 5:38 PM


Re: Serious subjects
Calypsis writes:

How far removed from reality you are. I wouldn't wish hell fire on my worst enemy.

Yet you think it is ok for your god to do so.

The Lord makes an invitation to all to join Him in heaven forever but you and the other skeptics here act like you are all allergic to the Creator God who made you.

No, we just do not believe he exists. How can you be allergic to somthing that does not exist. I am 'allergic' or I should wary of those who believe that blatantly destroying the entire human race as well as commiting other attrocities including ethnicide and infanticide, is good.


β€œOne of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Calypsis4, posted 10-15-2009 5:38 PM Calypsis4 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Calypsis4, posted 10-29-2009 4:28 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2479 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 98 of 112 (533127)
10-29-2009 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by kbertsche
10-28-2009 5:25 PM


Re: Lunar Eclipse
Doig's Biblical Chronology writes:

The color of the moon can take on the appearance of blood during a lunar eclipse, and this has been suggested for the later part of the prophecy.13 A lunar eclipse did occur on April 3, 33 CE, the day proposed for the crucifixion of Jesus. However, until recently the eclipse had been calculated to have been finished by the time the moon rose at Jerusalem. With revised computer dating it has now been calculated that a partial lunar eclipse was briefly visible at moon rise on that Friday in 33 CE. The eclipse began at 3:40 PM and reached a maximum of 60% coverage by 5:15 PM. However, the moon was below the horizon at Jerusalem until about 6:20 PM. At moon rise about 20% of the eclipse remained, possibly to appear as red in the eclipse area. The remaining eclipse was finished a half hour later, by 6:50 PM. This is suggested as the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy.

Although no lunar eclipse was visible from Jerusalem in any other year suggested for the crucifixion, the eclipse in 33 CE is not likely to be significant to the search for the date of the crucifixion. Whether Peter spoke the words of Joel because they had recently been fulfilled, or whether the fulfillment is yet future is far from certain. Whether the brief partial eclipse could actually be seen from Jerusalem will require independent verification. Whether the eclipse was actually the color of blood is also uncertain. If the corner of the moon did appear as blood, could it have been interpreted as the intended fulfillment of Joel's prophecy? Although an interesting approach, such uncertainty cannot be the basis for accepting the crucifixion of Jesus in 33 CE.

The above shows the points of the eclipse of 3 Apr 33 CE

This occurred after sun set and according to Jewish Law the remains had to be removed from the cross before sunset on Friday since sunset started Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath and the eclipse occurred after sunset.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by kbertsche, posted 10-28-2009 5:25 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by kbertsche, posted 10-29-2009 11:20 AM bluescat48 has responded

    
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 99 of 112 (533211)
10-29-2009 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Coragyps
10-28-2009 8:41 PM


Re: Lunar Eclipse
quote:
As I pointed out upthread, the 33 AD eclipse was at best marginally observable from Jerusalem. The link to Espenak's page at NASA that Calypsis gave in the OP shows this - "fourth contact," which is the moment of the moon leaving the umbral shadow, was right after moonrise as seen from Israel. At best there would have been a nick out of the north edge of the moon, and in bright twilight at that.

Noticeable, if you were really looking, but not very exciting.



I was merely summarizing the claims of Humphreys and Waddington in their Nature article. They admit that the eclipse maximum would have been before moonrise, and calculate that the eclipse ended about 30 min after moonrise.

Would this have been noticed by first-century Jews? Remember that Jewish days began at sunset. The people would have certainly been watching the skies that evening, because sunset would start both the weekly Sabbath and the annual Passover. They would almost certainly have noticed an unusually reddish moonrise. But would they consider it significant? This is debatable.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by lyx2no, posted 10-29-2009 3:38 PM kbertsche has responded

    
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 100 of 112 (533213)
10-29-2009 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by bluescat48
10-29-2009 12:12 AM


Re: Lunar Eclipse
quote:
The above shows the points of the eclipse of 3 Apr 33 CE

This occurred after sun set and according to Jewish Law the remains had to be removed from the cross before sunset on Friday since sunset started Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath and the eclipse occurred after sunset.



Yes, your quote and comments agree with the the claims of Humphreys and Waddington.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by bluescat48, posted 10-29-2009 12:12 AM bluescat48 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by bluescat48, posted 11-02-2009 12:32 AM kbertsche has acknowledged this reply

    
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 3005 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 101 of 112 (533263)
10-29-2009 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by kbertsche
10-29-2009 11:14 AM


Red Moon Rising
They would almost certainly have noticed an unusually reddish moonrise.

There would not have been a red moon for them to notice. The red moon is caused by the Earth's atmosphere transmitting a small amount of the light that hits it around and filling in the Earth's shadow slightly. Most of the longer wavelengths (blue) is left behind, scattered for us to see in the sky. The operative words, however, are "small' and "slightly"; very little light is carried round into the shadow and even a small amount of full sun light blinds us to the extra red component.


It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
β€” Anon

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3503 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 102 of 112 (533271)
10-29-2009 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by lyx2no
10-29-2009 3:38 PM


Re: Red Moon Rising
lyx2no:

Hey, space case; see you on judgment day.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by lyx2no, posted 10-29-2009 3:38 PM lyx2no has not yet responded

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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3503 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 103 of 112 (533272)
10-29-2009 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by DevilsAdvocate
10-28-2009 8:52 PM


Re: Serious subjects
Yet you think it is ok for your god to do so.

That is exactly correct and if you don't repent of the things you've done wrong in life you will be there.

No, we just do not believe he exists

But He still does. God doesn't need your permission to exist, O lost one. You will stand before Him in judgment in the day appointed just like everyone else and you will give an account of every single thing you have ever done wrong.

I am 'allergic' or I should wary of those who believe that blatantly destroying the entire human race as well as commiting other attrocities including ethnicide and infanticide, is good.

You aren't telling the truth. God never destroyed the 'entire' human race and never will. He will destroy those who are evil...like you.

This is my last post here.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Coyote, posted 10-30-2009 12:22 AM Calypsis4 has not yet responded
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 104 of 112 (533279)
10-29-2009 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by lyx2no
10-29-2009 3:38 PM


Re: Red Moon Rising
quote:
There would not have been a red moon for them to notice. The red moon is caused by the Earth's atmosphere transmitting a small amount of the light that hits it around and filling in the Earth's shadow slightly. Most of the longer wavelengths (blue) is left behind, scattered for us to see in the sky. The operative words, however, are "small' and "slightly"; very little light is carried round into the shadow and even a small amount of full sun light blinds us to the extra red component.

Why is "full sun light" relevant? We are discussing the case of a full moon. Moonrise and sunset occur at approximately the same time; there is no "full sun light" after moonrise. The people would have been watching for the sun to set in the western sky, and almost certainly would have also noticed the moonrise in the east.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by lyx2no, posted 10-29-2009 3:38 PM lyx2no has responded

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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 3005 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 105 of 112 (533280)
10-29-2009 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by kbertsche
10-29-2009 6:15 PM


Re: Red Moon Rising
Why is "full sun light" relevant?

Some portion of the moon's surface receiving full sunlight, not the observers.

AbE: Actually, let me modify that somewhat. Full sunlight is an over statement. I should have said direct sunlight. Even if the Sun is only peaking around the Earth a little bit (Moon in the Earth's penumbra) the redness is washed out.

Edited by lyx2no, : Correct myself.

Edited by lyx2no, : Correct the correction.


It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
β€” Anon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by kbertsche, posted 10-29-2009 6:15 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by kbertsche, posted 10-29-2009 10:29 PM lyx2no has responded

  
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