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Author Topic:   Fine tuning/ programming
Percy
Member
Posts: 22502
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 41 of 123 (530957)
10-15-2009 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Pauline
10-15-2009 3:44 PM


Dr. Sing writes:
Well, you've given an example of how selection (environmental pressures) acts on variation (mutations) to produce the best effect (fittest organism). I see the beauty of the logic of that argument, I do. But I am going to focus of the very basic process of action potential to prove my point. Natural selection has nothing whatsoever to do with this process. Natural selection can act on something that already exists. My point is focusing on how do bring something to existence without intelligence?"
Almost every individual in a population has mutations. Generation after generation, nature is performing experiments by constantly varying the genome. Some of those mutations will affect adaptation to the current environment, and those individuals who are better adapted will be more likely to produce more offspring, passing their mutations on to the next generation. Those individuals less well adapted will be more likely to produce fewer offspring, and so their mutations will be less likely to be represented in the next generation.
It doesn't take any intelligence for a population's environment to perform selection. To use some extreme examples for clarity, individuals born with severely deleterious mutations will likely not survive childhood, while individuals with extremely beneficial mutations will likely outcompete their peers in the race to produce progeny. No guiding intelligence is necessary for this to happen.
--Percy

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 Message 40 by Pauline, posted 10-15-2009 3:44 PM Pauline has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22502
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 59 of 123 (531097)
10-16-2009 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Pauline
10-15-2009 8:01 PM


Re: Intricate complexity from on high!
Dr. Sing writes:
I've demonstrated that:
1. having the same 4 parts function differently in two different types of muscle contributing to their functionalities requires foreknowledge and intelligence (therefore, a programmer who possess these).
No, you've *argued*, not demonstrated, that design was required.
Theories are explanations and interpretations of the real world. They're developed from detailed observations of the real world, and validated by successful predictions of future observations of the real world.
The theory of evolution developed from observations of and validations from the real world. When we examine life we see imperfect reproduction followed by selection of the best adapted. We see descent with modification caused by mutations and, in sexual species, by allele remixing, and we see competition within and among species allowing those organisms whose genes produce the best adaptation to the environment to survive to pass on their genes to the next generation. We do not see a designer inserting improved genes into populations. You're postulating a mechanism for which there is no evidence.
As far as the heart goes, any mutations that change the configuration and composition in a way that permits more efficient pumping will be selected for, those that do the opposite will be selected against, and that is all that is required for the design of the intricate interplay of signals and forces in the heart.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22502
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 75 of 123 (531335)
10-17-2009 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Pauline
10-16-2009 5:14 PM


Dr. Sing writes:
Okay, so please explain to me how it might have occurred naturally.
The short answer is the one Dr Adequate just gave you: evolution.
The slightly longer answer is that any mutations that change the structure and makeup of the heart in a way that permits more efficient pumping will be selected for, those that do the opposite will be selected against, and that is all that is required for the design of the intricate interplay of signals and forces in the heart.
--Percy

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 Message 70 by Pauline, posted 10-16-2009 5:14 PM Pauline has not replied

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 Message 79 by Percy, posted 10-18-2009 7:55 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22502
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 79 of 123 (531489)
10-18-2009 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Percy
10-17-2009 4:45 AM


Content removed.
Edited by Percy, : No reason given.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22502
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 87 of 123 (532175)
10-21-2009 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Pauline
10-21-2009 7:12 PM


Dr. Sing writes:
FYI, tetanus is not caused by bacteria or virus.
According to Wikipedia, tetanus is caused by bacteria. Tetanus symptoms are caused by a neurotoxin produced by the bacteria:
Wikipedia writes:
The primary symptoms are caused by tetanospasmin, a neurotoxin produced by the Gram-positive, obligate anaerobic bacterium Clostridium tetani.
You began the thread with a description of complexity in the heart and asked how evolution could produce such complexity. You received your answers, not once but several times: mutation and selection, and the answer to this latest post from you is the same. What I think we'd all be interested in hearing is a response to our answer and not just another, "No, no, no, you don't understand, let me explain again just how incredibly complex this is."
What we see in intricate biological structures and processes is Rube Goldberg-esque design on a scale of complexity outside the capabilities of any intelligent design process we're familiar with, but it's precisely what one would expect from a process of many successive random trials carried on in parallel with the successful ones carrying forward. Design approaches that one might consider like compartmentalization or structured hierarchy are ignored in favor of what works.
--Percy

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 Message 86 by Pauline, posted 10-21-2009 7:12 PM Pauline has replied

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22502
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 90 of 123 (532184)
10-21-2009 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Pauline
10-21-2009 8:28 PM


Dr. Sing writes:
Anyway, foremost IDsts may think one thing and you might expect me to just follow their footsteps but the fact that Darwin himself said this: "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." is indicative of how unsure of his own theory he was.
This is one of the more common creationist quote mines we see here. I just did a search for it here, it appears in at least 11 threads. Here's the full quote, this time providing what your truncated version left out:
Darwin writes:
To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei, as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself originated; but I may remark that, as some of the lowest organisms in which nerves cannot be detected, are capable of perceiving light, it does not seem impossible that certain sensitive elements in their sarcode should become aggregated and developed into nerves, endowed with this special sensibility.
Once you see the full quote it becomes apparent that Darwin's thinking process as he wrote this was, "I have such an excellent response to this objection that I shall raise it myself!"
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Pauline, posted 10-21-2009 8:28 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Pauline, posted 10-21-2009 9:18 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22502
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 97 of 123 (532230)
10-22-2009 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Pauline
10-21-2009 9:18 PM


Re: Sir Darwin's excellent response: I don't know!!!
Dr. Sing writes:
Exactly, and his "excellent response" is based on his own assumptions.
Actually, you quoted that passage to indicate how "unsure of his own theory he was" when it did no such thing. Do note, though, that as with many men of true scientific temperament and great knowledge, Darwin tended to express himself tentatively.
Darwin's inferences were based upon the then available evidence, not assumptions, but interestingly, no evidence discovered since that time has led us to question those inferences.
And its the same old "mutation and selection" answer.
Yeah, I know what you mean. I get so bored with those same old "germ theory of disease" and "Big Bang" theories. Time for a change. Never mind that evolution, germ theory and the Big Bang accurately model reality. They've had their day, it's time for new theories to take the stage and hang accuracy.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Pauline, posted 10-21-2009 9:18 PM Pauline has not replied

  
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