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Author Topic:   Does complexity require intelligent design?
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 30 of 229 (191727)
03-15-2005 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by xevolutionist
03-14-2005 2:02 PM


Re: Clarity
Complexity with purpose and function seems to indicate an intelligent designer.
Yes, objects created by designers normally have a utility for the designer. Given the vast array of life and its ebbing and flowing with time (sometimes nearly wiped out), what utility do you see life of any kind providing for a designer, or capable of providing for a designer such that you see that it is designed.
For example if we had no idea what a car was through examination we could see that there are "seats" and "wheels" and an ignition which starts an engine which turns the wheels and is controlled by pedals which are not connected back to the same system (that is the car cannot push its own pedals).
Beyond potential food source, what do you see?
And furthermore, how come the designer is not obviously using what life was designed to provide for it?
How do we know this? Is there a mathematical formula that proves this apparent supposition?
They are 3D objects in 3D space, moving within that space and having their light reach us over vast amounts of time (meaning they are no longer in those particular spaces and so alignments). The fact that right now you look up and get a 2D arrangment that looks similar to something is pretty much a coincidence of time and spacial arrangement and the fact that you think it looks like something.
Please give some examples.
The dodo. Would you like a list of species that went extinct because they could not compete with the human species? How about a list of species endangered or wiped out within a region due to a competing invasive species, like the new seaweed which is wiping out large swathes of life in the Mediterranean?
Of course our planet’s life systems are dependant not only on the above mentioned factors, but the presence of the moon to activate the tides and prevent the oceans from stagnating, and the unique quality of water as a solid becoming less dense than the liquid form, thus preserving life in bodies of water by forming an insulating blanket of ice on the surface, rather than the entire body freezing solid.
This ranges from the unknowable to the completely false. Since we do not know under what specific conditions life arose we cannot say what conditions are necessary for life in general much less life on earth to have begun or evolved.
We do have some theories that early species slowly oxygenated the atmosphere which allowed for greater expansion of life. And it is true that as life spread into regions where bodies of water would freeze solid if not for the density property, life exists there (as it does) because of that property.
However beyond people simply stating so, I have yet to hear a reason why the freezing property of water has any impact on abiogenesis or evolution in general. Especially if life began in the oceans, and more importantly tropical areas of oceans, there is little ice has anything to do with life.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by xevolutionist, posted 03-14-2005 2:02 PM xevolutionist has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 34 of 229 (191982)
03-16-2005 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by trent13
03-16-2005 5:32 PM


Re: hmmm...intelligent design
Intelligent Design is a pseudo-scientific enterprise which would reject what you just laid out. You mean to argue for creationism, and so believe that life has been designed by an intelligence. That is different than Intelligent Design.
In any case, while Aquinas might have used a logical structure for his argument, that is not cause for saying you "had no reason to question the credibility of God's existence." You may say you found no challenges which could refute the logic, but saying you had no reason to challenge it seems a bit strange.
Please define what you mean in points 2, and 6-9. You will find problems associated with all of them.
One of your larger problems is that #7 and the quote you gave from Aquinas, leaves God quite undefined besides where it was or what it did. It could end up being almost anything... including a very nonXian, nonIntelligent entity. Indeed the God from #7 could very well be totally unconnected from the God which directs all natural things toward their end.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by trent13, posted 03-16-2005 5:32 PM trent13 has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 50 of 229 (192077)
03-17-2005 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by trent13
03-16-2005 7:02 PM


Re: definition games?
so someone pointed out that my argument of intelligent design doesn't argue for intelligent design but for creationsim - let me say that, though perhaps you do and I should, I didn't distinguish between the two.
Look, we really need to stop this kind of waffling. A person can say they believe in Evolutionary Theory, and perhaps their theory involves some form of life evolving into greater complexity, but if it also involves something other than the common tenets of modern evolutionary theory (for example Lamarckian evolution) it is simply confusing to say one believes in Evolutionary Theory.
It moves beyond simple equivocation to outright obfuscation.
Yes I thoroughly grant that you believe that and intelligence designed life. In that vague sense you believe in intelligent designing. But Intelligent Design is a specific program of research with stated tenets which you clearly do not accept.
Why not just say you believe that life was designed by an intelligent being?
Something doesn't come from nothing, no matter how hard you try. There has to have been a first thing whereby all matter came into existence.
Two sentences in complete contradiction. Something cannot come from nothing, but a first thing can? Oh yeah, that's logical. Allowing for a first thing to bend the rules, opens the can of worms.
This is why Pink was correct. Energy and matter may always exist. Energy transfers into matter and that is how it came into existence. That back and forth tranfer allows for an infinite past for matter.
I make no admittance of any other
End of logic.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by trent13, posted 03-16-2005 7:02 PM trent13 has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 77 of 229 (192261)
03-18-2005 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by xevolutionist
03-18-2005 2:19 AM


Re: what's left?
Again, if it could be shown to have actually happened and a pervasive process like that should leave evidence, and positively affected at least a few humans in the how many generations in the last seven thousand years I believe we've been here, and surely in the millions of years that evolutionists claim that we have existed, there should be some documented improvement in some individuals.
Yes it has been indicated, if not "shown" by a Nairobi family whose members were prostitutes and managed to avoid HIV infection. They have a different immune system than the rest of us. I guess this is case closed for you now, huh?
And if that is not enough here is my other thread on recently mutations where we can track back to the mutation event, and the mutation most certainly was beneficial. In this case it was a bit too beneficial and now the plant is a hazard to other marine life.
I'd be glad to see you address either of these threads.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by xevolutionist, posted 03-18-2005 2:19 AM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by xevolutionist, posted 03-18-2005 2:50 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 92 of 229 (192339)
03-18-2005 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by xevolutionist
03-18-2005 2:34 PM


Re: Do the gedankenexperiment.
If you eliminate all but the better mutations you would be ignoring reality. Why couldn't several thousand better mutations be wiped out by one harmful mutation?
Because the one harmful one will not propagate to other members of the species as the initial mutant will not procreate, not procreate as much as others, or the descendants will be unable to procreate. If the mutation was unable to stop the objective or relative procreation of the mutant, then it wasn't harmful.
That said, sometimes events cause the environment to change, making some previous characteristics a disadvantage. In those cases mutations which had not been harmful in the past, may be after the event and the species as a whole is harmed. That is why we have extinctions.
I haven't compiled statistics but I think that just the varieties of cancer alone would outnumber any known beneficial mutations clinically affecting the human body.
Single beneficial adaptations can improve survival and therfore propagate within a species. You can see how this happens with the two cases I already gave you in my post #77 to you. In fact the first one shows how a mutating virus was nixed by a mutated human immunosystem. I notice you have not replied to the list I or Pink gave you (posts 77 and 78).
To postulate a first intelligent cause that we didn't witness, is to me, more acceptable than the alternatives, and explains more than just my existence.
The problem is you cannot logically have a premise saying everything must have a cause and then another which says it is impossible that everything must have a cause, followed by and assertion that X is uncaused and the link between the first and second premises.
Why could it not simply be a mobius universe, where there is no beginning and end? Or why could the first uncaused thing be unintelligent energy?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by xevolutionist, posted 03-18-2005 2:34 PM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by xevolutionist, posted 03-20-2005 5:04 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 94 of 229 (192342)
03-18-2005 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by xevolutionist
03-18-2005 2:50 PM


Re: what's left?
Whoops we crossed posts. You can ignore my mentioning your nonresponse to post 77 in my previous reply.
Again I state that resistance to disease is a normal function of our bodies. I would speculate that everyone should have an immune system like that mentioned, but harmful mutations are having a deleterious effect on the human race.
From this I can assume you did not follow the link, nor try and find any more info about what was going on.
Here's the deal, they did not find some remnants of people with nonbadly mutated immune systems. What happened is that they discovered (by tracing resistance) that members of a family in Nairobi have immune systems which function differently than the rest of our systems. It began with one member and you can trace the geneaology onward (though in this case they traced backward to source).
Yes disease resistance is a normal function of the body, but HOW our bodies function gets altered through mutations. They had a mutation which could be considered nuetral in general, but in light of the HIV epidemic gave them a great positive benefit. Humans in that region (barring controls on the spread of HIV) would all end up having this mutation as all survivors would end up being descendants from that family.
I notice you did not address the other mutation at all. It also showed a beneficial mutation where researchers were actually able to trace back to the point of mutation event. The positive mutation in the plant gave it greater temperature resistance. It was not immunological in nature.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by xevolutionist, posted 03-18-2005 2:50 PM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by xevolutionist, posted 03-20-2005 5:10 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 95 of 229 (192343)
03-18-2005 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by xevolutionist
03-18-2005 3:07 PM


Re: documented improvement
I didn't have to look very hard for that qualifier, and there were many similar ones in the other materials.
Nice try. Instead of searching through the info for qualifiers regarding exact natures of how something worked, why don't you take a look at what is actually being said.
Yes, examples can be rare (especially given how long we've been looking for mutations in the first place), that does not change what the outcome of having a beneficial mutation grants the mutant.
And just because we might not know exact function which does the aiding, does not alter that something is being aided from a certain source.
This was an exquisite example of quote mining, in that it not only switched the intent of the person being quoted, it did so by highlighting one negative word or phrase as if that meant it supported your position.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by xevolutionist, posted 03-18-2005 3:07 PM xevolutionist has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 109 of 229 (192831)
03-20-2005 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by xevolutionist
03-20-2005 3:12 PM


Re: exotic vs invasive
I believe embracing that theory has caused irreparable harm to human society.
This is a bit dramatic don't you think? Even if it were a flawed theory, why would its acceptance for a period of time result in irreparable harm? What harm is it that you feel has been done and cannot be alleviated by a better theory emerging?
In science theories come and go with their ability to accurately model what we see going on around us. They have come and gone without leaving permanent scars. I am uncertain why evolutionary theory would be any different.
Oh by the way, are you going to address my correction regarding your reply on the HIV and plant mutation examples?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by xevolutionist, posted 03-20-2005 3:12 PM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by xevolutionist, posted 03-20-2005 5:32 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 120 of 229 (192864)
03-20-2005 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by xevolutionist
03-20-2005 5:04 PM


Re: Do the gedankenexperiment.
Did you consider the possibility that the above mentioned group [I know that there have been other individuals found with a similar immunity] has an immune system that hasn't been compromised by harmful mutations, and the vast majority of the population has? Given that beneficial mutations are rare and harmful ones plentiful, this seems as likely an explanation as yours.
Yes I did consider this possibility, but it doesn't work out with the evidence we have at all. There's is not a pure system, it is simply a different system which at this point in time (because HIV is ravaging the human population) would be selected for and passed down to future human generations.
If mankind solves the HIV problem then their system would not be the new norm, if we don't and HIV works as other diseases have before modern medicine, then eventually their system will be the new norm since everyone will have to be a descendant of theirs.
I'm still not sure why you have not figured out how beneficial mutations work. Most mutations are neutral. Even if most of the nonneutral mutations are detrimental, that will be detrimental for the organism, not the species. Then the few overtly beneficial mutations will be passed on to future generations and grow within them as beneficial mutants will (on average) procreate more than the neutral mutants.
In any case, there is also the plant mutation you have yet to deal with at all.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by xevolutionist, posted 03-20-2005 5:04 PM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by xevolutionist, posted 03-20-2005 7:01 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 121 of 229 (192866)
03-20-2005 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by xevolutionist
03-20-2005 5:32 PM


Re: exotic vs invasive
The harm is that prior to the acceptance of the theory man was generally thought of as being above the animal kingdom and standards of morality were generally accepted as having a higher authority. ToE reduces us to relatively intelligent animals. The acceptance of the theory has led, I believe, to a decline in morality and the sanctity of life.
1) The ToE has nothing to say on the subject of morality, so a decline in morality has nothing to do with the ToE.
2) When there was no ToE and people and Gods were thought to have the highest authority there was much much less morality in general. That is if you measure lack of morality by people robbing, torturing, and killing each other. What exactly is your measuring stick for morality?
3) How come if animal life is found to be equal in importance to human life, that inherently lowers the importance of human life, instead of raising the importance of animal life. It seems to me the ToE makes life much more important as something to appreciate being around (given all the extinction going on).
4) What on earth does the suicide rate and abortion have to do with the ToE? Okay I call your bluff and would like to see the stats, as well as the reason they mean anything regarding the ToE.
5) How can we be said to be callous toward new life when due to medical procedures coming well after the ToE, we have greatly decreased infant mortality as well as death in child birth... not to mention our respect for old life by extending health and life into later years?
6) Even if I accepted your claim of harm, why is it irreversible?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by xevolutionist, posted 03-20-2005 5:32 PM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by xevolutionist, posted 03-21-2005 11:36 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 129 of 229 (192989)
03-21-2005 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by xevolutionist
03-20-2005 7:01 PM


Re: Do the gedankenexperiment.
That would work theoretically for a large population.
Actually it is the reverse that is true. Within smaller populations positive mutations will have a greater effect (grow faster). That's just math, 1 in a million makes a smaller impact than 1 in ten.
I don't see that there is enough time for that to have worked allowing for smaller gene pools and other setbacks.
Okay, I have two problems with this.
First is how you can say there is not enough time. We are talking many millions of of years, with at least 10K years for reasonable changes within a species to form another (which may still look pretty similar). Within less than 15 years, the family with HIV resistance and the plant with extra hardiness have both done quite well relative to the rest of the populations.
Second, if you are rejecting the ToE, I assume you are excepting YEC? If so then how do you have trouble with evolutionary time frame for forming species diversity, and yet have no problem with a less than 6K timetable for all current species diversity (that is given the flood, all life fanning out an diversifying)?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by xevolutionist, posted 03-20-2005 7:01 PM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 133 of 229 (193057)
03-21-2005 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by xevolutionist
03-21-2005 11:36 AM


Re: exotic vs invasive
If man is merely the product of mutations in animals, rather than the special creation of God, morality is just an abstract concept, with no standard, or guidelines of behavior, from an authoritative source.
Morality is only a concept when one is free to decide, otherwise one is simply obeying a superior. A good example are criminals, while what a person does may be illegal (and thus criminal) it may also be morally correct.
For theists with a strict code of behavior there is only law, not morality.
In any case, even assuming theist doctrine is morality, there is no sense that because there is no one standard morality from an authority, morality flies out the window. At least there is no logic to it.
There are some good reasons for humans to speculate on and adopt moral codes, for example personal and social harmony and improvement. You may not like practical reasons for adopting moral codes, but they are there.
My question to you is if you found out definitively tomorrow that there was no God, would you suddenly go berzerk?
If one were to use the 2 laws that Jesus gave, there would be a lot less robbing, torturing and killing.
This didn't answer my question. If robbing, torturing, and killing are measures of immorality then once again I point out to historical fact that times of following religious law (God as highest authority) have been equal or more immoral than recent times.
If every animal is just the product of random mutations {including man}, doesn't that make our existence just a random event in the universe with no meaning? The human race and everything it accomplishes, no more meaningful than a petri dish of bacteria.
Our existence would have come about randomly, yes. That does not however remove one iota of meaning. We give meaning to our lives, not the universe.
I already gave you the reason, but that's unsubstantiated. It's a conclusion I've drawn.
Uhhhh, the ToE's been around for more than 45 years. It might also be mentioned that our knowledge (recording of stats) of suicide has improved so that could be part of growing numbers.
Regardless, you seem to be jumping to a pretty far fetched conclusion, especially as you gave no stats regarding ToE that might provide a connection. My own theory would have to do with increased pressure on young people.
Over 40 million abortions since 1973, most {99%} of them because it's inconvenient for the mother to bear the child. Many abortions performed at a stage when the baby is capable of survival outside the womb. Have you ever read a detailed description of a partial birth abortion? Often performed in the last month of pregnancy, if that isn't callous indifference to life, I don't know what is.
This is not consistent with info provided by earlier, by a person against abortion none the less. I'm not going to call you a liar, but this looks pulled out of a hat to me.
Again, the ToE was before 1973, and interestingly enough makes no claims that could reflect on abortion. I think what you want to look at is developmental biology, that deals with understanding what is growing inside a pregnant woman.
Frankly, whether the ToE was correct or not, if human procreation was as it used to be believed it was (tiny fully developed people simply growing larger) then I'd probably be against abortion. Its developmental biology which showed we are not dealing with "people" when we look at zygotes and fetuses, not the ToE.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by xevolutionist, posted 03-21-2005 11:36 AM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by xevolutionist, posted 04-01-2005 2:04 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 142 of 229 (193228)
03-22-2005 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by crashfrog
03-21-2005 9:20 PM


Nice line of questioning... beat me to the punch.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by crashfrog, posted 03-21-2005 9:20 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
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