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Author Topic:   Unintelligent design (recurrent laryngeal nerve)
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 480 (536698)
11-24-2009 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by slevesque
11-18-2009 5:39 PM


Re: Clutching at Straws
The RLN case is essentially settled, since as of today we have not found a function for the route it takes, I have no answer as to why any sort of ''designer'' would have done it this way. although, as I have repeated many times over, we have multiple examples of such situations in the past which permits me to hope that modern biology will find it a function.
Why isn't it obvious that the RLN is the way it is because that's how it evolved?
There's a great explanation for it in Message 37, thanks to Granny.
Isn't that much more plausible than "It really was designed but we just haven't found out the reason yet"?
Esspecially with the Giraffes... I mean, that does make the design pretty terrible. And that their RLN does the same thing as everyone elses really strongly suggests that we're related, dontcha think? To reuse such a poor plan in such a large neck really makes the designer look umm, not intelligent.

ABE:
in Message 113 you wrote:
I mean, the RLN could well be a bad design, but it would only imply a none perfect designer.
Why can't you see that it really implies that it wasn't designed at all? And further, that it did, in fact, evolve?
Not every single thing has to have been specifically designed? Why couldn't the designer allow some things to evolve?
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by slevesque, posted 11-18-2009 5:39 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by slevesque, posted 11-24-2009 3:31 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 480 (536715)
11-24-2009 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by slevesque
11-24-2009 3:31 PM


Re: Clutching at Straws
In a nutshell, because evolutionnary theory does not rely only on this piece of evidence. I find that it fails on other levels as well. And so, in the overall picture, I find that it inadequate and a designer, much more fitting.
Forget the overall picture for a second and consider just this piece of evidence. The evolutionary explanation is much better than any explanation where this POS was intelligently designed, don't you think?
Now, back to your overall picture... It seems you've got a false dichotomy behind you. Why couldn't something be designed to evolve? Its not necessarily an either/or proposition.
Also, when you have an overall picture (where evolutionary theory is inadequate and design is more fitting) and you zoom in all the way down to the gnat's ass, (or the RLN in this case), and you find that evolutionary theory IS more adequate and fitting than design, isn't that an indication that maybe your overall picture is skewed?
Honestly, from the view from my car, it really does look like the water was designed to fit within the pothole

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by slevesque, posted 11-24-2009 3:31 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by slevesque, posted 11-24-2009 4:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 480 (536844)
11-25-2009 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by slevesque
11-24-2009 4:14 PM


Re: Clutching at Straws
I don,t think it is intelligent to marry my theology to the 'facts' of today, as I am sure to be widowed tomorow
Do you think you're more or less sure than the church was when they imprisoned Galileo for his 'facts' on heliocentrism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by slevesque, posted 11-24-2009 4:14 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by slevesque, posted 11-25-2009 3:33 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 480 (536910)
11-25-2009 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by slevesque
11-25-2009 3:33 PM


Re: Clutching at Straws
Quite the classic example, the catholic church had married their theology with the fact of geocentrism (which came from the greeks) and of course, the divorce made a mark that lasts up to this day.
But that doesn't fit at all.
You said that you're denying evolution because you don't want to marry to the 'facts' of today. The analogy is the church not wanting to marry to heliocentrism, it doesn't work the other way around. Otherwise, you would be married to the 'fact' of creationism and then its no longer an excuse to why you don't accept evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by slevesque, posted 11-25-2009 3:33 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by slevesque, posted 11-25-2009 4:13 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 480 (536915)
11-25-2009 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by slevesque
11-25-2009 4:13 PM


Re: Clutching at Straws
This is not exactly what I said, I think. I did not say I deny evolution because I don't want to mary my theology with it. I deny evolution because I consider that the facts don't line up with the theory.
However, what I was saying was that if, for whatever reason that I see as extremely improbable, I was ever going to conclude that the theory of evolution was correct, then I would not marry my theology with it. I would simply let go of my theistic believes as well. Or at least with my christian beliefs.
Oh okay, I see. I did misunderstand you.
Why would accepting the ToE make you let go of theism and christianity?
On subjects who do not touch the biblical truth, I have no problem accepting or changing my opinion on. Heliocentricism, for example, has no theological impact whatsoever, in my opinion.
But the Bible says that the Earth is immovable (1 Chronicles 16:30)
Heh, or what about a talking snake? You don't really think there was a global flood, do you?
If you can accept heliocentrism then you should be able to accept evolution.
And the way you talk about evolution, its sounds as if you think its going to be disproven one day?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by slevesque, posted 11-25-2009 4:13 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by slevesque, posted 11-25-2009 5:02 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 480 (536935)
11-25-2009 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by slevesque
11-25-2009 5:02 PM


So much for the topic. Let's carry on until we get Moosed.
Accepting the ToE would mean taking the genesis account as an allegory, or a metaphor. This would mean that there was no historical original sin that affected humankind.
Not necessarily. It could be that there was a historical original sin and that Genesis is an allegorical, or metaphorical, account of it.
This goes down either two direction:
1- Humankind is not affected by sin in reality. But then why would Jesus have to die ?
2- Humankind is affected by sin, but it is not the result of an factual events on our part. Sin then becomes part of the overall picture planned by God. But then why would God send people to hell because of their sins, if it is in the end not humanities fault ?
Genesis having errors doesn't necessitate that the factual event didn't occur.
In other words, no historical genesis account means no historical original sin. Which in turn underpins the central message of christianity which is Jesus's sacrifice.
Is it all good if losing genesis doesn't mean losing original sin?
Regardless, Jesus sacrificed himself for an evolved mankind.
I think that the geological evidence fits surprisingly well with a global flood hypothesis. Others may disagree.
Yeah. The entire planet has never been floaded since mankind has been here.
A talking snake is no more surprising then a person ressurection after three days.
Do you think it had vocal cords or something? Or do you think it was just magic noise?
I think its a little goofy. It sure does seem like allegory.
The theological implications of the ToE go to the very core of christianity. Not the same with heliocentricism which has no effect at all.
Has no effect at all? Remeber Galileo!
The ToE is the same as heliocentrism was. When they're fresh, they're such a huge implication to the very core, in hindsight they're no effect at all.
Evolution as a ''fact'' won't be. Since science is now naturalist, fixity of species is not longer an option and so evolution becomes the only option.
I would not be surprised to see the mechanisms of evolution be changed. The call for a change would probably come from genetics. Gould took his best shot at changing one aspect of the paradigm with ponctuated equilibrium, with moderate success. Which was the call for change from the field of paleontology. I could something simlar happening from the field of genetics.
But evolution is here to stay I think.
What's the problem then? Common ancestry?
I had a post a ways back about an article talking about "culture" having kind of a rapid bloom, rather than a drawn out process, or something like that, but it kinda seemed like mankind "waking up". It seemed like something The Fall could have been allegorical to.

Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence.
Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith.
Science has failed our world.
Science has failed our Mother Earth.
-System of a Down, "Science"
He who makes a beast out of himself, gets rid of the pain of being a man.
-Avenged Sevenfold, "Bat Country"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by slevesque, posted 11-25-2009 5:02 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by slevesque, posted 11-26-2009 1:05 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 480 (562903)
06-02-2010 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Big_Al35
06-02-2010 11:18 AM


Re: vocal chords
From Message 178:
Your arguments seem to revolve around discrediting the contributor. I suggest you seriously review your own rules and guidelines.
The reality is that you have not provided any convincing arguments to counter my claims.
Oh, okay. I'll bite.
In Message 162 you claim:
If we went along with some of the evolutionary commentators above and rearranged these nerves so that they connected directly I doubt very much whether we would be able to speak or make the rich variety of vocal sounds that we can. We might even have difficulty in swallowing the huge variety of objects and foods that we can. These nerves have to be long and they have to be stretched. Looping around the arteries enables this stretching to occur during the growth phase in a natural way. The differing lengths of the right and left nerves adds to the vocal range that these nerves can accommodate.
The great designer has shown once again that his intellect is far superior to ours.
No, you're wrong. If the nerves were rearranged and connected directly, then it would be easier for us to speak and swallow. The way they have been currently designed makes it harder for us. Therefore the great designer has shown us that he made a mistake in this design.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Big_Al35, posted 06-02-2010 11:18 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Big_Al35, posted 06-03-2010 6:48 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 480 (563103)
06-03-2010 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Big_Al35
06-03-2010 6:48 AM


Re: vocal chords
A medical fact that I should point out from the very site that I mentioned previously, namely bioinfo, states the following "We have found that small, benign, or otherwise asymptomatic lesions of the thyroid gland have a greater tendency to cause vocal cord paralysis in patients with nonrecurrent laryngeal nerves". Hence they are clearly at a disadvantage.
Wierd, cause the medical fact I've found from the site that I linked to before, namely nervenews, had this to say: "We have found that the loss of the recurrance of the laryngeal nerve leads to greater vocal ranges and a larger dilation of the esophogus." So clearly, it IS an advantage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Big_Al35, posted 06-03-2010 6:48 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 480 (563294)
06-04-2010 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Big_Al35
06-04-2010 9:20 AM


Re: vocal chords
An article I just read on the Management of Paradoxical Vocal-Cord Dysfunction (PVCD) States the following;
"As breathing becomes controlled, the athlete is encouraged to stand upright while maintaining diaphragmatic breathing. Diaphragmatic breathing is preferred to clavicular breathing due to the increased laryngeal tension promoted through clavicular breathing. "
Tension within the laryngeal nerve is a key factor in how the vocal cords function.
That's saying that the tension is increasing in the larynx, not the recurrent laryngeal nerve!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 9:20 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 211 of 480 (563296)
06-04-2010 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Big_Al35
06-04-2010 5:55 AM


Re: Dodging and weaving...
Huntard writes:
Oh, and Catholic Scientist has found a source that completely contradicts you!
Now what?
Ok...so we have two sources which completely contradict each other. I guess we have to agree to disagree in that case. Which was our stance right from the word go right?
This is a debate site. We come here to debate. We don't come here to agree to disagree. We don't come here to read unevidenced assertions. You've brought a baseball to a chessmatch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 5:55 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 216 of 480 (563307)
06-04-2010 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Big_Al35
06-04-2010 9:41 AM


Re: vocal chords
Another article for you;
Injury to the external laryngeal nerve causes weakened phonation because the vocal cords cannot be tightened. Injury to one of the recurrent laryngeal nerves produces hoarseness, if both are damaged the voice may or may not be preserved, but breathing becomes difficult.
Aren't we just going round and round in circles?
That doesn't have anything to do with the nerve being recurrent or not. Either way, recurrent or not, if you damage the nerve then those problems are gonna happen.
Strike two.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 9:41 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 220 of 480 (563317)
06-04-2010 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Huntard
06-04-2010 10:18 AM


Re: vocal chords
For this I'd need a source, I'd need to read the context. But I'm not gonna get any, am I?
Posture & Biomechanics
quote:
Effect of Nerves
Before we go into the problems of muscles we need to remember the nerve structures. Current research has reminded us that muscles and tendons are not the only things that have to stretch and slide as the body moves. Nerves have been the forgotten ingredients over many decades of sports therapy. Nerves have to be free to move with every action and before each muscle stretches the nerve or its coverings (meninges) will stretch first. The interesting thing to remember is any bruising around areas where nerves exit from the spine (such as after a whiplash injury) or where nerves pass through muscles (such as after a fall), can cause adhesions around the nerve coverings and stop the necessary movement. What happens then? Well when nerves are caught up through adhesions or scarring and prevented from moving they get very irritated. The first thing an irritated nerve does is to start to send messages to the muscles to tighten up. So the vicious cycle starts. Tight nerves lead to tight muscles. This is called Neuromeningeal tension.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Huntard, posted 06-04-2010 10:18 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Huntard, posted 06-04-2010 10:30 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 480 (563328)
06-04-2010 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Coragyps
06-04-2010 10:42 AM


Can we sum up the last couple of pages by saying that since giraffes have a longer, more stretched recurrent laryngeal nerve than humans do, they can sing better than humans?
What kind of stuff do giraffes like to sing?
Apparently the Jonas Brothers:
Is there anything that's NOT on these internets

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Coragyps, posted 06-04-2010 10:42 AM Coragyps has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 226 of 480 (563330)
06-04-2010 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Big_Al35
06-04-2010 10:53 AM


Re: vocal chords
Nice to see u guys actually doing some work, thinking and making a contribution instead of leaving it all up to me.
You were doing a fine job of being wrong all by yourself, but we do what we can

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Big_Al35, posted 06-04-2010 10:53 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 265 of 480 (566373)
06-24-2010 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by slevesque
06-24-2010 12:21 PM


rant on slevesque
No offense to you personally, but I don't like your "take a step back" approach.
We're disgussing a specific problem with the pathe the RLN takes:
and you're discussing Dysteleology in general.
Apparently you don't have anything to help with the specific discussion that this thread is about.
Its like in my thread: Theropods and Birds showing a change in kinds, where you avoided the specific case presented and took a step back to discuss genotype/phenotype relationships.
It just seems like you're avoiding discussing the actual issues...
{/end rant}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by slevesque, posted 06-24-2010 12:21 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by slevesque, posted 06-24-2010 12:47 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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