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Author Topic:   Baby Denied Health Care Coverage For Being "Too Fat"
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 132 of 184 (531361)
10-17-2009 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jazzns
10-12-2009 1:39 PM


Only in the USA. And it is a fundamentally disgusting fact of our system. Profit motives in this arena of our economy are incongruent with both our ideals and our best interests. We do not have profit motive in fire/resuce/police for a VERY GOOD REASON.
You make a very good point about profiteers, but health care is a completely different animal. While on the one hand it is unscrupulous to not cover some people because of preexisting conditions (because they have to be able to pay the OUTRAGEOUS medical fees somehow) Medicaid and Medicare are government run programs which are a joke.
There are certainly Pro's and Con's about both sides. But I am leery in opting for Obama's health reform. While I applaud him on being the first president in a long time to really take a proactive and comprehensive approach to the dilemma, I don't think it is as good of a plan as he marketed it. Please note this refutation.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jazzns, posted 10-12-2009 1:39 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Jazzns, posted 10-17-2009 1:05 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 184 (531400)
10-17-2009 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Jazzns
10-17-2009 1:05 PM


Re: CATO
You know who the CATO Institute is don't you?
I know exactly what the Cato Institute is. I'm curious as to what you think it is though.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Jazzns, posted 10-17-2009 1:05 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Jazzns, posted 10-17-2009 3:37 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 184 (531670)
10-19-2009 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by onifre
10-17-2009 3:23 PM


Re: We the people
Dem's and Rep's citizens do NOT act differently, they act according to whatever their party supports, it's the same for both sides. The media targets these groups and provides fuel to the fire. Each side follows media propaganda.
Absolutely, and it's tearing the country apart.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by onifre, posted 10-17-2009 3:23 PM onifre has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 184 (531682)
10-19-2009 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Jazzns
10-17-2009 3:37 PM


Re: CATO
So you know that it is a global warming denial, big oil, big tobacco, ultra-conservative, astro-turf organization.
The Cato Institute is a Libertarian think tank, not an "ultra-conservative" group.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Jazzns, posted 10-17-2009 3:37 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Jazzns, posted 10-19-2009 1:17 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 184 (531872)
10-20-2009 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Jazzns
10-19-2009 1:17 PM


Re: CATO
They are a global warming denial, big oil, big tobacco, ultra-libertarian, astro-turn organization.
They have members that are skeptical of global warming, they aren't "big oil/big tobacco" so much as they are for "free markets," and they are a grassroots organization no different than any other.
Moreover they are ideologically dedicated to the total dismantling of government for anything other than national defense.
No, they are for reducing the government which if you read the Constitution was the stated aim. They simply think that government is too large. When you have government run institutions for art work like the National Endowment for Arts, it is no wonder why the United States is this in debt. More government programs means more taxes. That's simple economics.
Again I'll ask, why do you believe that we shoud listen to a "debunking" of such an obviously biased organization? Do they have expertise in this area? Have their ideas been tried anywhere? Ever?
If ever there were a non-partisan group, it would be Cato since they never align themselves completely with either democrats or republicans. On any debate you won't see them politically align themselves towards any party.
But why should we listen to ObamaCare when that truly and obviously is biased? You're making self-refuting claims.
Just listen to the arguments, not immediately dismiss it as an "Ultra-conservative" group.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Jazzns, posted 10-19-2009 1:17 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Jazzns, posted 10-20-2009 11:02 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 148 by Izanagi, posted 10-20-2009 12:17 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 169 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-10-2009 9:02 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 170 of 184 (538813)
12-10-2009 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Bolder-dash
12-10-2009 9:02 AM


Re: CATO
That would be hilariously funny if it wasn't so dam stupid. The United States is not in debt because it funds art.
I was giving just one example of wasteful government spending.
Were you drunk when you wrote this?
No, I was preoccupied with your mother in bed.
The fact is, as a society, we have decided that we want to have a country which has value for living in-which includes nice roads, good hospitals, good schools, scientific research, culture, and entertainment.
Yes, and some of those are the responsibilities of government and some of those are private endeavors. Why should the government fund artwork? What does the government have to do with individual expression?
Governments spend money, and in turn they create jobs
I see you're from China and in your country the government sticks their nose in to everything. Granted. But the express purpose of my government is to be limited so that private enterprise can flourish. The government in my country creates government jobs. The government didn't create FedEx, General Dynamics, General Motors or the myriad of other companies that exist.
they circulate money throughout the society and they create worth.
They create fiat currency, and what happens when no one wants to invest in your money anymore because it has no intrinsic value? It causes rampant inflation and essentially makes the value less and less.
Perhaps the only thing that causes our nation to incur debt as a result of spending, is when we wage war, and engage in other international escapes like in the middle east, where our money is handed out to Iraqi and Afghan warlords.
The national debt started long before these wars. There is no one reason why there is such a staggering debt. There are multiple reasons, like the enormous debt on Social Security.
The main thing that destroys a country's economy and causes ruin, is when too much money is allowed to get into the hands of too few people. This is precisely what your vaunted "free market" actually achieves.
Uh, what? Explain how free markets prevent too few people to get money when the explicit point is for all to have the unobstructed purpose of moving capital around.
No one would concern themselves with the long term goals of a company or society, instead they would simply make as much profit as quickly as possible, at the expensive of quality, at the expense of social responsibility, at the expense of employing as few people as possible, at the expense of transparency, at the expense of the country's future stability. If I can make more than my neighbor, in whatever legal means necessary, than that is nirvana.
That's how it is in the real world. No one goes to work for the good of mankind, they go to work so they can feed themselves and their families! History continues to testify to this basic and simple economic fact.
Well, that may be nirvana for you, but it is not nirvana for a country. I suggest if that is your goal, go move to a small island and make as much money as you can all by yourself, because your ideals don't work at all with the concept of a community and a country.
Really, is that why communism has been so successful? As professor John Nash illustrates, the most success one can achieve is to maximize and be most advantageous. Through both serving their own interests and the interests of everyone else. A healthy economy is where individuals are free to trade with minimal government interference. That serves all of society, even the government itself.
Even in your country, they're figuring this simple principle. China today is not the China of the past. And they're flourishing as a result.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-10-2009 9:02 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-10-2009 11:49 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 172 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-10-2009 12:41 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 173 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-12-2009 8:55 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 184 (539028)
12-12-2009 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Bolder-dash
12-12-2009 8:55 AM


Re: CATO
Countries need a certain labor force. We need people to install telephone lines, and fix washing machines, and to build streets and do all kinds of other things. Those people will never be paid as much as stock brokers and actors and sports stars. And yet they provide as much value and more likely more to the society than the other professions.
So what? It's a contract between individuals. You either agree to the terms and conditions of employment or you don't agree with them and find a new profession. What then is your solution to the false dilemma? The even distribution of poverty?
In your free market scenario, you want those people to to be happy with what they have, or find something else to do, and leave the finer benefits of life to the stock brokers and movie stars.
If I am reading between the lines correctly, what this seems to be about is envy of success.
And yet we only have a limited number of resources for people to do those jobs, and we still need the workers.
The unemployment rate has remained statistically at 5% for a long time. That means there are plenty of jobs, and wealth creates new jobs that otherwise would have been unavailable.
So it is definitely in the country's best interest that the people who are doing the jobs that are never going to be high paying
Most jobs are payed for their services. Some jobs are vastly more difficult than others and should be payed accordingly. An individual working a cash register does not require tremendous thought or effort. A highly specialized doctor on the other hand is very learned and skilled, requiring much more technical know-how. Are you suggesting that the cash register operator should make the same as the doctor? If so, what is the incentive to ever try hard? Why not just take the easiest job possible and collect checks?
This is such common sense that it seems it shouldn't even need to be pointed out to some people..but frankly some people are just stupid and fail to understand that some government spending is good, useful and necessary.
Government spending on necessary things that the government is responsible for is good; i.e. roads, military, postal services, water supply, etc. Are you suggesting that the government should run everything?
Are you a Communist?
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-12-2009 8:55 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-12-2009 10:02 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 184 (539030)
12-12-2009 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Bolder-dash
12-10-2009 11:49 AM


Re: CATO
You might want to be careful making too many observations about how you think China's economy works, until you have a complete understanding of how a country on a similar amount of land mass as America, but with nearly 5 times the population and with a much smaller amount of that land arable, manages to adequately feed the entire nation-for the most part better than America does.
There is no food shortage for either country due to wise production. If American's are going hungry, it's not because there is a shortage of food. In China that may be the case, but that is not the case in America.
However, if you want to see a clear example of what happens when you let greed run free, just look at America for the past 8 years. Not a model I think many countries would wish to emulate.
What do you constitute as greed being that China produces upwards of 60% of America's good for none other than money.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-10-2009 11:49 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 184 (539032)
12-12-2009 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Bolder-dash
12-10-2009 12:41 PM


Re: CATO
I believe the spending for the National Endowment for the Arts was approximately .0048 of 1 percent of the federal budget in 2008.
The amount does not matter, especially when you add up all the other unnecessary programs that have to be taxed in order to run going to things that should not be government funded.
I think yes there is ONE souce of the deficit for America.
Bombs, and the accessories for dropping them.
While I agree too much is spent on the military-industrial complex, defense is the role of government and is indispensable to any nation. The reasons for the deficits are complex and is not the fault of any one thing. It is an accumulation of terrible government misjudgments and mismanagement.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-10-2009 12:41 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 184 (539033)
12-12-2009 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Bolder-dash
12-12-2009 10:02 AM


Re: CATO
Why do you want the government to insure that it citizens get water, or protection from missiles, but not protection from diseases?
Where did I say that I don't want the government to protect its citizens from disease? We have the Center for Disease Control and I approve of its existence.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-12-2009 10:02 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 184 (539041)
12-12-2009 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by onifre
12-12-2009 10:29 AM


Re: CATO
Not just the Tibetans but also the Taiwanese. Their government has also been caught red-handed harvesting organs of Falun Gong practitioners and prisoners. Quite a lucrative little business, yet he points the finger at American greed as if his countrymen aren't susceptible to it.
People living in China might not know that because Google has signed an agreement with the Chinese government to censor images and stories that are negative towards the Chinese government.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by onifre, posted 12-12-2009 10:29 AM onifre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-12-2009 12:51 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 184 (539047)
12-12-2009 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Bolder-dash
12-12-2009 12:51 PM


Re: CATO
Ahem...George W. Bush, Dick Cheney.
Let me ask you something: Do you think everyone in the United States voted for these douche bags?

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-12-2009 12:51 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-12-2009 1:11 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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