'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible

This was one of the first serious questions I had as a young Christian.I think that many people read the words "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" but mentally insert the words "the Second Coming of Christ".My suspicion is that Matthew purposely follows Christ's prediction by recording the event of six days latter when Jesus was transfigured before three of His disciples. This could be a preview of the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. His concealed divine glory was temporarily released from the shell of His humanity. And Elijah and Moses were seen by three of the living disciples conversing with Jesus.Look at the 28th verse followed by the first verse of the next chapter: The three got a glimpse of the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. At least they witnessed a foretaste or preview of Christ's eventual appearance at the end of the church age.The passage does not bother me. Rather it indicates to me evidence of the truthfulness of what Jesus said. For it could have been easy for Matthew to exclude embarressing material which might have the potential to discourage belief in the words of Jesus.Matthew's candid inclusion of these words, as in other similar instances in other Gospels, to me, testify of the faithfulness of the gospel writers to include problematic sayings of Jesus.That argues for the candid truthfulness of their account. They included difficult sayings and potentially embarressing sayings of Jesus. There does not seem an attempt to hide problematic recollections as would be the case if this was false propaganda. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

There seems to be some misunderstanding about the world and distinct from the earth.The earth is the Lord's yes. The world is what the apostle John said lies in the wicked one, the devil. This is Greek cosmos, a system, an arrangement belonging to Satan that usurps man.The earth is God's. The system of the cosmos, meaning the world system, is Satan's domain.At the second coming it is said that the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ. The world kingdoms will be turned over to Christ.The meek are to inherit the earth, the planet. Christ has overcome the world. And the church is on the earth but called out of the world, the EKKLESIA. If it becomes rooted in the world or part of the world it is the apostate harlot. That is to be judged. "Fear not I overcome the world" says Jesus.This is very brief. Can you all see the difference between the earth as the physical planet and the world as the system devized by Satan to usurp man away from God ?Now more could be discussed for we also have "For God so loved the world ..." in John 3:16. In this case the world really means all the people of the world.Sometimes the world refers not to the Satanic system but to the people. Sometimes the world refers to an age or segment of history.

I disagree. Generation sometimes is used not according to the age of persons but to a prevailing moral condition. (Matt. 11:16; 12:39, 41-42, 45; Proverbs 30:11-13).Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

None of these passages establish your claim. Matt. 24:30 has received this better translation in the Recovery Version Bible: "And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man comingon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matt. 24:30) It is the Jewish tribes of the Holy Land which is refered to as in Revelation 1:7 "Behold, He comes with the clouds and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him ..."The better translattion is that "and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him." Some versions may say "nations of the earth" but I think "tribes of the land" is better. And the passage itself is a quotation of Zechariah 12:10 which is in a prophecy about certain Israelite tribes which will repent at seeing their pierced God.What is more logical is that Christ, in returning to the Holy Land miraculously from Heaven will be witnessed by the Jewish tribes of the land of Israel.It could be that the convulsions of nature are something witnessed world wide. But the actual coming down of Christ seems to be seen only in the Holy Land by the people in that region, particularly the Jewish tribes living there.The verses in Matthew 25 speak of Christ gathering the nations not of them seeing His coming down on the clouds. And the timeframe of this gathering could possibly be over a longer period than the instance of His descending to earth.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You cannot force this passage to mean Paul expected to be alive at the time of the second coming of Christ. He can speak of "we" in a general way. That is the entire universal community of faith forms the "we". "Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."The phrase "we who are living" does not insist that everyone reading that letter will be living. It may be their hope that they would be living. But hope and prediction are not the same.The "we" should be regarded as the church universal and applies to every age in which the church continues to exist. Some will have died in Christ and some will be alive and remaining at His coming.Actually, the open endedness of the phrase " who are left remaining" also leaves room for the possibility that some Christians were previously raptured already before this open and public descension of Christ. First Thessalonians 4:17 does not insist that Paul will be alive when Jesus comes in His second coming. Nor does it insist that Jesus could not have previously taken some to Him before He descends in this glorious way visibly.Peter and Paul both yearned to have Jesus come back as soon as possible. What lovers do not long to be together as soon as possible ? However, their longing for this was not their prediction that it would be that way.And in both their epistles, they prepare their audience for the possibility that the Christian church will be without them. In both their writings, their longing for Christ's soon return did not stop them from preparing the church for a long distance run as a precaution that Christ would not come until after they died.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The difference is that Paul in chapter 4 is speaking of the second coming of Christ to the entire church. He is of course not teaching that ONLY for the Thessalonians is Jesus coming back.The "we" therefore should be a in reference to the church universal and not to the local church only which was in Thessalonica. Paul and the Thessonlonians are part of the church universal, as are all Christians.The thought of one locality being a part of a larger universal body which covers all geographic areas and all times is seen more in Ephesians 2:20,21: "Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the chief cornerstone;

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In whom all the building, being fitted together is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;

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In whom YOU ALSO are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:20-22 my emphasis) The building of this living temple of God is not limited to the church in Ephesus. They ALSO are being built up into this universal habitation of God in spirit.By the same token, Paul's discourse about Christ coming for the believers is not limited to the church in Thessalonica. It would include Ephesus, Colossia, the churches in Galatia, the churches in Judea, and other churches throughout the ages down until the time of Christ's second coming. "We" in Second Thessalonians 4:17 includes more than just Paul and his Thessalonian audience.It would be equally illogical to read 5:10 as related to only Paul, Silvanus, Timothy and the Thessalonians as the ones for whom Jesus died: " ... Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us in order that whether we watch or sleep, we may live together with Him" (5:10) "Us" and "we" there also has a larger scope than just those Thessalonians and the authors of the letter.Of course Christ died for the Christians in Rome and in Antioch also. And Christ died for the believers not yet born when Paul wrote First Thessalonians.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You have the right to choose which English translation you prefer. I have support also for "tribes of the land" is an admisable rendering. I am not sure why you mention Crucifixion, Resurrection, etc.But the passage says that some would not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. You are reading "Son of man coming in His kingdom" and inserting "the second coming".In His coming physically to the earth again He comes in His transfiguration state. The concealed divine glory within His humanity will burst forth. They on the mountain got a preview not only of Christ's transfiguration but of what will occur to His overcoming followers as well.Where as your prioritities may be on the time of His second coming, His priorities are on the release of the hidden divine glory from the concealing shell of humanity.I think it is a slight difference in priorities. Whereas you're looking for a fool proof prediction of when the moment comes, Jesus is more focused on the quality of the manifestation of this kingdom.If it had been a prediction that the contemporaries would not die before the second coming, it is quite commendable and candid that the church included the passage which would have been potentially embaressing to them.The inclusion of the passage, to me, argues for the faithfulness of the Gospel writers/compilers to include difficult or contraversial sayings of Jesus. Propogandist of an ordinary sort would likely keep concealed an alledgedly "failed" prediction of thier Master.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The word generation itself does not have to be taken as a human life span as indicated in the verses I provided.So "this generation" in Matthew 24 could take on a meaning of this generation defined by a moral condition. Matthew 25 simply says "WHEN" ... "but when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory." It is a leap at best to insist that that can only be understood as while His contemporary audience is still alive. "When" is simply "when". "At that time" is simply "at that time". Since Jesus said "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has set by His own authority" (Acts 1:7) no disciples can insist they know the precise time "soon" or "latter" of His coming.If it is not for us disciples to know for certain the times and seasons then we cannot insist that His the "soon" coming of the Lord is a failed prophecy.Furthermore, He said it was at an hour when we think not or least expect. "You also, be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming." (Luke 12:40)So Acts tells us it is not for us to know the times or seasons the Father has fixed and Luke says the Son of Man is coming when we do not expect. So emphasis in the NT is on readiness to supplement the fact that we do NOT know when He comes.If the first disciples thought Jesus was coming right away, there is no harm in that. They lived accordingly, They saw to it that they would be ready. I want to live the same way even if Jesus is not to return for another 500 years.For the Christian it is very good to live this way. There is no harm in it. "And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself even as He is pure." (1 John 3:3) Do you see Paul depressed and dejected in his final epistles because he is expecting to die ?Which epistle do we see depression, dejection, self pitying, remorse because the Lord Jesus has not yet come ?It seems that you skeptics are the only ones terribly upset about it. And that for dubious reasons. You desperately need something to convince yourselves that the words of Jesus should not be taken seriously.However, in speaking of His second coming He did left it open ended enough that even if the physical universe should decay His words would still not fail. "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away." (Matt. 24:35) The point is that His words are so faithful as to outlast the physical universe itself. So however long it takes for Him to physically return it cannot fail to occur.Since many of us are busy allowing Jesus to fill up our souls more and more we have plenty of time to be busy with the things of God. Maybe skeptics sitting around with no real reason to live spend their years gloating that Jesus has not returned yet.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

No you're wrong. There is no way that you can prove that Jesus was ONLY talking to those people living and listening to the strict EXCLUSION of all other listeners.You cannot prove that anymore than you can prove that this post is intended for NO ONE ELSE except YOU on TODAY's date.

The Gospel of Mark specifically records Jesus assuring the listners that the scope of His warning goes BEYOND the immediate audience of 12 disciples: "Watch therefore, for you do not know when the Master of the house comes, whether in the evening or at midnight or at cockcrowing or in the morning.'

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Lest He come suddenly and find you sleeping. And what I say to you, I say to all. Watch!' (Mark 13:37)By the words " ... what I say to you, I say to all" there is no doubt that it would be foolish to assume Jesus was not speaking to anyone else but those standing around.And the Gospel of Luke, taking up the same theme, reinforces that audience for the warnings are larger in scope then the immediate group if listeners: "You also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming.

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And Peter said, Lord, are You saying this parable to us, or also to all?

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And the Lord said, Who then is the faithful and prudent steward, whom the master will set over his service to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his masterm when he comes, will find so doing." ( Luke 12:40-43)Peter asks if the parable of His return is for them or for all believers. The answer of Jesus is that it is for all and any believers whom the Lord finds serving Him appropriately. The scope would include all Christians down through the ages as recipients of the warning.Furthermore there is a specific warning for the servants of Christ not to assume that the Master is delaying so that they can be morally lax: "But if that slave says in his heart, My master is delaying his coming, and begins to beat the male servants and the female servanst and to eat and to drink and become drunk.

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The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which je does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers." (Luke 12:45.46)Now consider Heritic's explanation that Christ's words have failed. Do they encourage the Christian to be more vigilant or less? If you think Heretic's explanation encourages the disciples to throw up hands and decide Jesus isn't coming, isn't Heritic's teaching against the spirit of Luke 12:45.46 ?So he cannot be trusted morally. And he cannot be trusted because Jesus said " And what I say to you, I say to all" Watch!' (Mark 13:37)Hereic's version is "What Jesus says to you 12 disciples is NOT what He says to all." So he directly contradicts the New Testament. It does not say that there were some standing there who would not die until they see the Son of Man coming with His angels. It says until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.Just like there is an animal kingdom and a mineral kingdom and a human kingdom, there is a kingdom of God. The life of humans constititutes the human kingdom. And the life of animals constitutes the animal kingdom. And the divine life of God constitutes the kingdom of God.The divine life with its glory was concealed within the shell of Christ's human nature. For that divine life and glory to radiate out and saturate His humanity was for Him to come in His kingdom of the divine life of God.Jesus was saying that some of those standing there would get a preview of this coming of the Son of Man in His kingdom. The scope of His coming in His kingdom is larger than the scope of His second coming. Yet it contains also His second coming.And we must not forget so soon. Jesus said concerning His coming: " And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" (Mark 13:37)You reader decide who you want to follow. Heretic here pursuades tha there is no need to watch for Jesus was only talking to believers who have long died.Jesus says what He warns to those alive then He warns to ALL - Watch!. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Peter asked about who Jesus was talking about when He warned the disciples to watch for His return: "And Peter said, Lord, are You saying this parable to us, or also to all?" (Luke 12:41)The following words in verses 42 - 48 reaffirm that He was speaking to ALL His disciples universally.His explanation does not restrict the scope to the 12 but enlarges it to ALL disciples.And of course He had plainly taught about His second coming: "And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" (Mark 13:37) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

There is a strong case that the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 pre-supposes that perhaps all those original disciples would die before His second coming.In the parable the ten virgins with oil in their lamps await the return of the Bridegroom who respresents Jesus. In the parable ALL of the ten virgins fell asleep. Their falling asleep could represent them dying in faith. The New Testament says that Christians sleep when they die.Notice all ten fell asleep in the parable: "And while the bridegroom delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. But at midnight there was a cry, Behold, the brdegroom ! Go forth to meet him!" (Matt. 25:6) If the Lord meant that His second coming would be at the world's darkest hour - "at midnight" and that the disciples had all fallen asleep and all needed to arise the meaning would be clear. Jesus, in delaying His second coming would cause many first disciples to grow old and die, ie. sleep in faith. And at the second coming they would be resurrected to go forth and meet the Bridegroom.So there is some ground to assume that Jesus was teaching that the delay of His second coming would mean the passing away of the generation of disciples who were awaiting His return.God's intention was most likely that the Gospel and the church should be TESTED by many generations of trial, persecution, attack from within and from without, to prove the eternal quality of what He established. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The point is that he is nor restricting his encouragement to that group. And I pointed out that in 1 Thess.5:9,10 Paul is also saying that Christ only died for the Thessalonians: " .. our Lord Jesus Christ, whjo died for us in order that whether we watch or sleep, we may also live together with Him"No one is saying that he "stopped" talking of himself or the Thessalonians. The point is that he is including a wider scope of recipients of his fellowship than just the receivers of this particular letter.This was the man's practice. For example, the letter he wrote to the Colossuans was also for the benefit of the Laodiceans, and vica versa: "And when this letter is read among you, cause that it be read in the church of the Laodiceans also, and that you also read the one from Laodicea." (Col. 4:16)Paul also indicated that his practice was to teach the same things in all the churches: " ... Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child nithe Lord, who will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, even as I teach everywhere in every church." (1 Cor. 4:17)Timothy was a co-auther of the letter to the Thessalonians. And Paul left instructions to him that what Timothy learned from Paul he should pass on to others: "And the things which you have heard from me ... these commit to faithful men, who will be be competent to teach others also." (2 Tim. 2:2)Certainly then, the teaching to the Thessalonians was part of this collection of instructions that Paul expected Timothy to teach and to pass on to other competent teachers even after Paul's possible death: "For I am already being poured out, and the time of my departure is at hand." (2 Tim. 4:6)No, rather you cannot prove Paul taught that Jesus only died for the Thessalonians who were reading his letter (1 Thess. 5:10). Nor can you prove that he taught Christ was only returning for the letter reading Thessalonians in 4:17 of the same book. A skeptic's daydream. As a matter of fact the second letter to the Thessalonians was a word of balance because some acted irresponsibly thinking that Jesus was coming so soon that they could drop working for a living.While the first letter is encouraging expectation that the Lord will come the second letter is a cautionary word to the irresponsible. Since they do not KNOW when the Lord will come, they should not assume to be lax or not attend to practical livelihood: "Now we charge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the things which were handed down to you and which you received from us... For we hear of some wlking among you disorderly, doing no work at all, but being busybodies.

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Now such ones we charge and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work with quietness and eat their own bread." (See 2 Thess. 3:7-14).As is human nature, some thought "Well if Jesus is coming maybe tomorrow, I can stop working a job."So the second letter balances the over zealous niavete. The Lord is indeed coming again. But we Christians must live as for the long term wait.Yours and Heretic's portrayal of a giddy apostle predicting that Jesus was coming so soon that nothing else mattered, falls flat in the larger tone of apostolic teaching.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I am not able right now to discuss this too long.However, you are really confusing your personal desire to disregard the teaching of Jesus. If YOU do not want to receive His teaching, that is your business. Do not say because of this "He was not talking to you."You're wanting to not listen to Christ is not equal to Him not speaking to those today who will listen.And Jesus foretold that He had other sheep who were not of that immediate fold of sheep (followers). He said he would bring them also. "And I have other sheep, which ae not of this fold; I must lead them also, and they shall hear My voice, and here shall be one flock, one Shepherd." (John 10:16) Just because you do not want to be one of those other sheep that He will lead, do not assume that He has no other sheep.Some following sheep were in the first century. And other following sheep were in subsequent centries. And other following sheep may be of the time to come should He tarry longer.So speak for yourself Heretic. You don't want to be exhorted converning the second coming of Christ? Fine. Does not mean He was not speaking to others. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

There is nothing in the epistle to suggest that future generations are excluded from the exhortation. There is nothing you can point to proving he could not be refering to future Christians.He closes the letter this way: "I adjure you by the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers" (1 Thess, 5:27)Brothers traveling through from other churches are not excluded. Brothers who become brothers in the future are not excluded. Brothers who Paul does not know or who become brothers after Paul has died are not excluded either.And should the church or the letter stand for 2,000 years or more brothers in those future generations are not excluded either.Just as Christ is said to have died for all the believers whether they be asleep in death or awake watching (5:10) so also He comes for all believers. Future Christians whom Paul does not know are not excluded. Why do I need to point to the number 2,000 or 1,000 or 500, or 50, or 35 or 15 or 10 or 3 or 1 or 1/2 or in one week or in three days ?It is open ended. It is not necessary to refer to a specific number of years, months, days, or hours. "We who are alive" simply means "we" of the unniversal household of faith. Where does Paul say "we only who are alive in the next 15 or 20 years" ? .He says "we" because he is speaking in that moment of time. It is perculiar how you keep harping on something which is of no major consequence.The universal household of Christian faith includes Paul. He certainly is part of the WE. He is one of "us".I can say the same thing. When Jesus comes again WE WHO ARE ALIVE will meet Him. That is inconclusive as to whether I will be personally alive at that time. I am still a part of the WE of Christian brotherhood regardless of how much time should elapse before He comes for "us". I don't know what you mean by an apocalypticist.
A Christian who expects and hopes that Lord will return soon does not necesarily insist that it must be so.Paul's epistles to Timothy and Titus are inoculations against future decline and apostasy. They prove that Paul took procautions for the possibility that the churches he raised up would be in for a long distance run rather than a sprint. You are still ignorant. The final words of the Apostle Paul are arguably his most important message. And his final writing was not about the soon coming of the Lord Jesus. Rather is was the Jesus was living within the innermost being of the Christians. "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you" (2 Tim. 4:22)This is Paul's final writing in the New Testament. It is not a reminder of the imminent second physical coming of Jesus. But it is a reminder that the Lord Jesus is the one who is with the believers regenerated human spirit. "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you."Because Jesus in His form as the Holy Spirit is within the believers they can enjoy the grace of Jesus. He can be their supply and their empowering for a daily Christian life.So Paul was more concerned the Timothy would never forget that Jesus Christ in the form of the Holy Spirit was with Timothy's innermost being with the empowering grace. This is the Christ to be enjoyed for the long run.It is very telling that Paul's final word was about the indwelling Jesus with His grace rather than the Jesus outside of man coming on the clouds of heaven. Wow. That looks final. I think it is more to the point that His words cannot fail even though He tarry long enough for the universe to wear out: "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away." (Matt. 24:35)He will come and will not fail to keep His word. It is more secure than the very existence of the physical universe. The universe may wear out but He will keep His word.I think that is more the bottom line in Matthew 24. No I don't. Nothing is said about the number of years. So you cannot prove any number of years is the wrong number.It is that simple.Then again in chapter 24 we read: " And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole inhabited earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matt.24:14)How many years did Jesus insist that will take ? He doesn't specify, does He?How many it should take may be less than how many it will take. However, no specific number of years is given for the gospel of the kingdom to reach the entire inhabited earth. So no number of years can be said to be the wrong number.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.