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Author Topic:   'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible
Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 789 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 371 of 479 (564487)
06-10-2010 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Izanagi
10-14-2009 4:03 AM


Re: Circular Reasoning
quote:
I know you asked hooah, but I would like to weigh in on this and my opinion is no. Using vol A of Britannia to prove something in vol C of the same encyclopedia is bad argumentation because you've used the same "source" to prove something the source says. What one should do is use another source, maybe an encyclopedia by another company, and compare the two to see if they corroborate with each other. That way, your argument stands on firmer ground as you have two sources to back each other up.
I saw this mentioned earlier and had to comment.
At the same time, it would be unfair to say that when Volume A of an encyclopedia says something that seems contradictory, you can't accept as valid something from Volume C that elaborates on the stuff from Volume A and clarifies the position of the encyclopedia.
That's what's happening here. It's not a question of sourcing, but what the Bible really says. It's like taking half a statement and rejecting the other half, taking it out of context.
Thus, some here just want to provide other quotes from the Bible showing what its position is in better context.
Obviously, if working off a belief the Bible is true, then the 2 Corinthians 12 verses could very well be all that's needed to show this alleged contradiction insubstantial. Whether it happened or not is irrelevant to this particular debate. Whether one believes prophecy and seeing the future could happen is irrelevant - to this particular debate.
If the Bible allows for the fact that an answer could be that the way those living saw it was by prophecy or seeing the future, then there is a plausible alternative, at least from a straightforward reading of the Bible when giving it the benefit of the doubt, and this does not meet the hallmarks of failing internal consistency.
Essentially those disbelieving it are doing so not because of internal consistency but their already existing preinclination to disbelieve the supernatural, which is then used to claim the Bible is false - because other sources are not used for the supernatural events. Nevertheless, it is unfair to say this is definitive proof the Bible is wrong, since you are assuming it has to be wrong simply because the events could not occur even though science does not disprove their possibility - it has just never witnessed them, which isn't the same thing. And while it does not provide proof for, it is certainly neither equivalent to a self-contradiction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Izanagi, posted 10-14-2009 4:03 AM Izanagi has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 789 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 374 of 479 (564495)
06-10-2010 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by hERICtic
06-10-2010 6:42 PM


Re: Signs
quote:
You have admitted the signs are for his followers to know when the end times are to arrive as well as the second coming of Jesus.
Now, if I said to you, I'm having a surprise party for my wife and I do not want anyone to show up while she is home. So I'm going to give a sign that is has gone. That way everyone knows to come into the house before she arrives again.
That sign will be when you see my car backed into my driveway, with a bicycle on the ground in front of the car.
As long as it's recognized by 'followers' is meant all generations of future followers of Christ who believe.
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by hERICtic, posted 06-10-2010 6:42 PM hERICtic has not replied

  
Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 789 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 375 of 479 (564498)
06-10-2010 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by Jzyehoshua
06-10-2010 6:25 PM


Re: Circular Reasoning
Also, the Bible is unusual since it treats itself as so authoritative that rather than needing other sources, it is itself sufficient as 'THE' source. At the same time though, it was more accountable in its transmission than is known, since those who falsely prophesied were put to death even from long ago.
Deuteronomy 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Zechariah 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
This is a pretty strong standard of accountability for Biblical authors. If they said something would come to pass and it didn't, they were put to death. The Bible itself declared it necessary to kill those who claimed to be prophets without being accurate as an assurance for its truthfulness.
Furthermore, there are other sources than humanity. A book could for example use sound logical reason, statements about the universe, human nature, nature in general, etc. If right often enough about readily verifiable facts, it would begin to build up for itself a record as accurate and consistent - by which to support its more extravagant and less verifiable claims - so long as they weren't certifiably false through self-contradiction or undisputable witness to the contrary. Especially if these were cited well before their time when such facts weren't readily accepted, it would be evident as more accurate on even controversial elements.
And actually, there is a very strong witness from history and archeology that has shown the Bible accurate on numerous disputed points. In some cases, it appears almost coincidental that history preserves so strong a record of Biblical events merely to prove them right. The Bible also provides names, dates (such as those according to the Persian calendar in the famous Daniel 9 prophecy), locations, etc. for historical verification. It is not afraid to cite facts about nature or facts about the universe or anything else for independent verification.
Ultimately, if God is the author, it wouldn't make sense for him or to defer to humans or their writings as his sources, since he'd be above them - they should be sourcing him. But he could use the historical record and nature itself as a means for verifying the book to those who might question it.
Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Jzyehoshua, posted 06-10-2010 6:25 PM Jzyehoshua has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by hERICtic, posted 06-10-2010 7:50 PM Jzyehoshua has not replied

  
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