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Author Topic:   'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2021 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 391 of 479 (564776)
06-12-2010 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by John 10:10
06-12-2010 10:52 AM


Re: Signs of our Lord's coming in Matt 24
My eschatology concerning what will happen at the end of the age is very simple.
Did you hear this one ?
There in Post Tribulation. And there is Pre Tribulation. And there is Pan Tribulation.
Pan Tribulation means that if you trust in Jesus everything will pan out alright !
Pretty good huh?
Jesus revealed in Matt 13 that the wheat & tares and the good & bad fish would grow together until the final harvest, then the unrighteousnes will be taken out for judgemnt.
God's word to me is to occupy until our Lord comes (if I live that long), taking as many prisoners as I can who are enslaved in the kingdom of darkness and leading them to our Lord's kingdom of light.
As for the Matt 24:30 sign in the heavens that will precede our Lord's coming, I too believe it will be supernatural and will visible for all the world to see, possibly a huge burning cross.
The problem I have with that is that in the New Testament the cross is mostly spoken of in reference to the denial of the self. But this is not how it is used in moat of Christiandom. In Christianity the cross is mostly used to mean the altar of sacrifice.
But I dare say that if you looked up all the passages on the cross most of them would be about the denial of the old man. My opinion is (which I respect very much) is that a cross for a big sign is too much along the line of mainstream degraded Christianity.
But I DON'T KNOW.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by John 10:10, posted 06-12-2010 10:52 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by John 10:10, posted 06-12-2010 4:07 PM jaywill has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3075 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 392 of 479 (564782)
06-12-2010 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by jaywill
06-12-2010 2:02 PM


Re: Signs of our Lord's coming in Matt 24
Yes, I've heard that one. There are also Mid Tribers.
Christians seem to be all over the place concerning when they believe Jesus will return. For me, I rely primarily on the teachings of Jesus, what He calls us to do until He returns.
The reason I said the cross could be the sign in the heavens preceding our Lord's return are these verses:
John 3;14-15 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by jaywill, posted 06-12-2010 2:02 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by jaywill, posted 06-12-2010 4:25 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 394 by jaywill, posted 06-12-2010 4:30 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2021 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 393 of 479 (564786)
06-12-2010 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by John 10:10
06-12-2010 4:07 PM


Re: Signs of our Lord's coming in Matt 24
Yes, I've heard that one. There are also Mid Tribers.
Christians seem to be all over the place concerning when they believe Jesus will return. For me, I rely primarily on the teachings of Jesus, what He calls us to do until He returns.
The reason I said the cross could be the sign in the heavens preceding our Lord's return are these verses:
John 3;14-15 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
We should in some way, expect to be surprised by the way in which He comes back. I mean we should expect that there will be some element of the unsuspected in His way.
When Jesus came the first time, Judaism was largely caught off guard. Today we have a stronger religion then Judiasm, Christianity.
If you think there will be no element of the unexpected to the religious minded, that would be unlike Him. Millions of Christians are going to be caught by some unexpected manner in which He comes bcak, even in glory.
But if we are walking daily in the Spirit we will not be as surprised. As a matter of fact when He snatches some away to the throne in heaven it is only a change in physical location. Their hearts and their spirits are already there.
I am not kidding even a little bit. I am quite serious. If we are found walking in the Spirit, saturated with His presence, and enjoying Him, when our bodies are removed to heaven it should only be a physical change of place. Inwardly, we are before Him already.
Or at least we should be living that way. Would you like scriptural evidence for what I am saying ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by John 10:10, posted 06-12-2010 4:07 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2021 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 394 of 479 (564787)
06-12-2010 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by John 10:10
06-12-2010 4:07 PM


Re: Signs of our Lord's coming in Matt 24
John 3;14-15 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Based upon this you suspect the sign is the cross ?
I don't know. How do I know ? If I am alive at that time I want to be taken by the Lord before there is any great visible sign. That is before great tribulation even begins.
I think the dramatic sign is for the late train not the early train.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by John 10:10, posted 06-12-2010 4:07 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by John 10:10, posted 06-12-2010 4:48 PM jaywill has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3075 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 395 of 479 (564789)
06-12-2010 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by jaywill
06-12-2010 4:30 PM


Re: Signs of our Lord's coming in Matt 24
Yes, many will be totally surprised at our Lord's coming. But the "sons of light and sons of day" (1 Thess 5:5) will not be surprised. Let us be alert and sober (vs 6) until He comes or takes us home.
For me, if I'm still alive on earth during the days preceding our Lord's return, I want to be a part of these overcoming Believers:
Matt 24:13-14 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by jaywill, posted 06-12-2010 4:30 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by jaywill, posted 06-12-2010 6:23 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2021 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 396 of 479 (564800)
06-12-2010 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by John 10:10
06-12-2010 4:48 PM


Re: Signs of our Lord's coming in Matt 24
Matt 24:13-14 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."
In the spiritual warfare rapture is a strategic advantage over the enemy. Far from being only an escape from something unpleasant it is a defeat to Satan, shortening his time.
Not only so, but rapture is in obedience to Christ. To fail to be raptured could be an indication of disobedience. I do not say it is hopeless disobedience. But it could be an indicatio of not heeding the Lord's word. For He has told the church:
"But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things and stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:36)
His command is that the churching people should not only be watchful but beseech the Lord that they may escape the things mentioned and stand before the Son of Man.
One day after taking this passage for granted, I realized that to be raptured before the great tribulation was to escape all these things and stand before the Son of Man. Then I appreciated that one should seek to be raptured in obedience to the Lord Jesus.
Do not let anyone persuade you that rapture is not warfare in the spiritual realm. And do not let anyone persuade you that a pre-tribulation rapture of some of the Christians is not according to God's will and His command.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by John 10:10, posted 06-12-2010 4:48 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by John 10:10, posted 06-12-2010 8:01 PM jaywill has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3075 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 397 of 479 (564808)
06-12-2010 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by jaywill
06-12-2010 6:23 PM


To be raptured or not, that is the question?
I have no objections to being a part of our Lord's admonitions in Luke 21:26, and maybe leaving this earth like Enoch and Elijah before our Lord returns at the end of the age.
But escape from the things that are about to take place on the earth could mean being like Noah & his family, or Daniel & his three friends - we go through as overcomers with God's protection.
That too is spiritual warfare.
Blessings
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by jaywill, posted 06-12-2010 6:23 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by jaywill, posted 06-13-2010 7:16 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2021 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 398 of 479 (564848)
06-13-2010 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 397 by John 10:10
06-12-2010 8:01 PM


Re: To be raptured or not, that is the question?
I have no objections to being a part of our Lord's admonitions in Luke 21:26, and maybe leaving this earth like Enoch and Elijah before our Lord returns at the end of the age.
But escape from the things that are about to take place on the earth could mean being like Noah & his family, or Daniel & his three friends - we go through as overcomers with God's protection.
That too is spiritual warfare.
True. And good reasoning.
But, which represents the perfect will of the Lord ?
If He tells the church that IF they fulfill certain conditions He will keep them from the hour of trial (Rev. 3:10) and some obey, would that not represent His first desire?
Now if some fail to fulfill those conditions and pass through the hour of trail as prayer warriors, wouldn't that represent His second choice ?
"Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10)
This is a conditional. "Because YOU have done something, I will keep you not only from the trial but from the hour of the trial."
A conditional indicates that SOME will likely respond and SOME will likely fail to respond. This is a simple fact of life.
Now I agree with you, that those who fail to keep the condition and have to pass through the hour of trial may ALSO learn spiritual warfare. The question is, did they do so in a timely manner according to the Lord's desire ? Or were they late in learning?
Would not the spiritual warfare of fulfilling the condition to keep the word of His endurance and being kept from the hour of trial represent His first plan ?
I do not mean to imply in any way a "second classness" of Christians. But to have to pass through the trial indicates to some degree, that the lesson of endurance had been postponed. Had the lesson of endurance been applied at the right time then there would not have been the passing through the hour of the world wide trial.
Eager to see your response.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by John 10:10, posted 06-12-2010 8:01 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by John 10:10, posted 06-13-2010 8:52 AM jaywill has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3075 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 399 of 479 (564855)
06-13-2010 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by jaywill
06-13-2010 7:16 AM


Re: To be raptured or not, that is the question?
But, which represents the perfect will of the Lord ?
For me, it's finishing the work on earth our Lord has called us to do.
"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say ?" Luke 6:46
When my life on earth in centered on this, when I leave this earth is in His hands, not mine.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by jaywill, posted 06-13-2010 7:16 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by jaywill, posted 06-13-2010 4:05 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2021 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 400 of 479 (564891)
06-13-2010 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by John 10:10
06-13-2010 8:52 AM


Re: To be raptured or not, that is the question?
For me, it's finishing the work on earth our Lord has called us to do.
"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say ?" Luke 6:46
When my life on earth in centered on this, when I leave this earth is in His hands, not mine.
My question is without making this a personal matter though. Can you see that to heed the Lord's warning in a timely manner is up to the standard? And to heed the Lord's warning late, thought wonderful, is remedial?
Take it out of the personal. Your personal view is quite admirable. I too would like to have that attitude.
If you have students in a class who graduate on the day of graduation, they have not surpassed the standard. But they have come up to the standard. Yet if you have students who have to take night class or summer school to graduate, while this is good, it is remedial, late.
We're glad all eventually graduate. But the best is to do so when it was required.
Isn't being raptured out of the hour of the trial up to the standard then ? And isn't having to pass through the trial to be raptured latter remedial ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by John 10:10, posted 06-13-2010 8:52 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by John 10:10, posted 06-13-2010 10:25 PM jaywill has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3075 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 401 of 479 (564936)
06-13-2010 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by jaywill
06-13-2010 4:05 PM


Re: To be raptured or not, that is the question?
Unfaithful servants may leave before their time on earth is finished. But I believe the Lord is in charge of graduation day for all of His faithful servants. Doing the will of God on earth is the only standard for which I believe Believers will be judged.
'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things, I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.' (Matt 25:23)
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by jaywill, posted 06-13-2010 4:05 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by jaywill, posted 06-14-2010 7:18 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2021 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 402 of 479 (564977)
06-14-2010 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by John 10:10
06-13-2010 10:25 PM


Re: To be raptured or not, that is the question?
Unfaithful servants may leave before their time on earth is finished.
By this do you mean that the overcomers who have kept the word of His endurance in (Rev. 3:10) are unfaithful servants ? That would be strange.
But I believe the Lord is in charge of graduation day for all of His faithful servants. Doing the will of God on earth is the only standard for which I believe Believers will be judged.
Are you saying by this that the overcomers of the church of brotherly love "Philadelphia" who have kept the word of the Lord's endurance did not do the Lord's will (Rev. 3:10) ?
'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things, I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.' (Matt 25:23)
But what I am trying to show is that a pre-tribulation rapture is a reward for doing God's will. And it represents overcoming. It therefore signifies coming up to the standard or normality.
And Christ Himself needs some to experience it in order to do God's will on the earth.
It is not only the work the Christians do for the Lord Jesus. It is much more that God works ON them to work Christ as life INTO their beings. For the building material for His temple is Christ. If we are saturated with Christ we are fit for His living temple. If we are not filled and saturated with Christ we cannot build or be built up into His living temple.
Of the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 Philadelphia is the most built up into an organic temple in the Lord. And to her is the reward to be kept out of the hour of great triublation if her constituents would keep the word of His endurance.
The built up living organic church is the city set on a hill that cannot be hid. So she is a great gospel message to all around herself.
As she spreads to gospel she also testifies the effect of the gospel by the building up in brotherly love and her rapture is a testimony to the Christians remaining that Christ was happy with her faithfulness.
So may the Lord bring us into Philadelphia.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by John 10:10, posted 06-13-2010 10:25 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by John 10:10, posted 06-14-2010 9:51 AM jaywill has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3075 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 403 of 479 (565002)
06-14-2010 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by jaywill
06-14-2010 7:18 AM


Re: To be raptured or not, that is the question?
Unfaithful servants are those who do not do God's will on earth or leave their calling, and God calls them home before their time. Paul says a number of those who do not judge the body rightly sleep (1 Cor 11:29-30), meaning they die before their time.
Faithful servants are those who do God's will on earth, becoming God's overcomers in every age, including the last one; and God calls us home at the right time.
If pre-trib rapture is God's reward for the faithful and this happens during our life time, I will be there with you.
If pre-trib rapture is not God's truth and God calls us to go thru the tribulation as overcomers, will you be there with me?
Blessings
Edited by John 10:10, : added clarification

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by jaywill, posted 06-14-2010 7:18 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by jaywill, posted 06-14-2010 10:32 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2021 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 404 of 479 (565007)
06-14-2010 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 403 by John 10:10
06-14-2010 9:51 AM


Re: To be raptured or not, that is the question?
Faithful servants are those who do God's will on earth, becoming God's overcomers in every age, including the last one; and God calls us home at the right time.
If pre-trib rapture is God's reward for the faithful and this happens during our life time, I will be there with you.
I consider that an encouraging compliment. I did not say that I was so garuanteed to be one taken early. I tremble that regardless of Bible knowledge He is no respector of persons.
But I share your hope and receive that as a compliment.
If pre-trib rapture is not God's truth and God calls us to go thru the tribulation as overcomers, will you be there with me?
Beautifully put. By God's mercy I will, should that be the case.
And there is something to not being overly instrospective about one's own condition but lovingly caring for others.
I have strayed away from the topic a bit. What else can we say about this "failed prophecy" theory ?
I don't believe it is failed.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by John 10:10, posted 06-14-2010 9:51 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by Phat, posted 06-14-2010 10:36 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 408 by John 10:10, posted 06-14-2010 1:16 PM jaywill has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 405 of 479 (565010)
06-14-2010 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 404 by jaywill
06-14-2010 10:32 AM


Re: To be raptured or not, that is the question?
Could it be that God foreknew that peoples logic, reasoning,and overall attitudes and behavior would fit well within the scope of "scoffers" mentioned in some prophecies?
I think where I differ from you two is that I am willing to question whether the Bible is inerrant or not, having faith that even if it was, God would still be involved. Of course, I could be wrong about that also.

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important.~T.S.Eliot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by jaywill, posted 06-14-2010 10:32 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by jaywill, posted 06-14-2010 10:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
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