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Author Topic:   'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2681 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 436 of 479 (568030)
07-04-2010 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 435 by ICANT
07-03-2010 9:22 PM


Re: As many as the Lord our God will call to Himself
Hi ICANT,

ICANT writes:

Matthew is writing quoting Jesus.
Jesus is speaking to His disciples/Church/Bride.
About the destruction of the temple, His return, and the destruction of the Universe.

Since the disciples/Church/Bride is still in existence there are still those alive to see the coming events that will take place in the future.

A few questions I would like answered if you can.

Jesus gives a long list of signs. What is the purpose of those signs?

What is the abomination that causes desolation?

Is the "end time" (the return of Jesus) a one time event?

Thanks.

Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by ICANT, posted 07-03-2010 9:22 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2010 3:51 PM hERICtic has responded

    
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2681 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 437 of 479 (568034)
07-04-2010 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 433 by John 10:10
07-03-2010 8:41 PM


Re: As many as the Lord our God will call to Himself
See...thats where you are wrong. Apparently we have two different ways of looking at the Bible.

You blindly accept on faith.
I base my beleifs upon evidence.

I read the Bible and based upon what I read I came to a conclusion.

If you are so willing to lead me to Christ, then preaching does not work. Evidence does.

I am trying to engage in a debate with you based upon what scripture states and what evidence is does or does not show.

You lack the evidence, so you refuse to debate.

Perhaps you should sit back and learn how ICANT handles himself.

You could learn a few things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by John 10:10, posted 07-03-2010 8:41 PM John 10:10 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by John 10:10, posted 07-04-2010 4:12 PM hERICtic has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 438 of 479 (568155)
07-04-2010 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by hERICtic
07-04-2010 12:59 AM


Re: Signs
Hi Eric,

hERICtic writes:

Jesus gives a long list of signs. What is the purpose of those signs?

Jesus was talking to His Church warning them of things to come and how they could avoid problems and loss of rewards.

He told us there would be many false Christs. There have been.
Many have been deceived.

We have had wars and rumors of wars and are told not to be troubled.

Jesus told us nation would arise against nation. They have.

He warned us of famines, pestilences, earthquakes is strange places.

He warned some would be delivered up afflicted and some killed. Well some 60 million children of God have been killed in the name of religion.

He warned us of false prophets. They have and deceived many.

He warned us iniquity would abound. Things that was sin 50 years ago is now considered the norm.

He warned us that the love of many shall wax cold. It has, no one seems to care about doing things God's way anymore.

He told us all these things so we could be prepared for the day they would come. Well those days are here and we are just as unprepared as BP was for the disaster in the Gulf.

hERICtic writes:

What is the abomination that causes desolation?

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Daniel prophesied of a man that would rule the world. He would make an agreement with Israel and they will rebuild the Temple and return to Temple worship. The Temple must be rebuilt on the Temple site and will co-exist with the Mosque. This will last until he has been in power for 3 1/2 years at which time he will stand in the doorway of the Holy of Holies in the Temple and declare he is God and must be worshiped as such.

It will then be required to have a specific identification to be able to buy or sell anything. Those who will not bow down and worship him as God will not receive this identification and they will be hunted down and killed.

hERICtic writes:

Is the "end time" (the return of Jesus) a one time event?

The end time is not the return of Jesus.

Jesus will return to call His Bride out from the living of the Earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place and God's children will be judged according to their works and rewarded accordingly.

At the end of the Tribulation the Great which will be 3 1/2 years after the Antichrist stands in the doorway of the Holy of Holies and declares himself to be God Jesus will return to earth as the Jews looked for Him to come 2000+ years ago. He will come riding on a white horse bringing judgment to the Earth and everyone in it.

There will be a great war, billions will die.

The nations will be judged according to how they have helped or fought against Israel. Those that have been friends with Israel will be allowed to go into the 1000 year reign of Christ. The rest will be cast into the lake of fire where Satan has been chained for the duration of that 1000 years.

At the end of that 1000 years Satan will be loosed and he will go out and deceive the nations and they will come up one last time to destroy Israel. At this time a tremendous war will take place. After this war will be the Great White Throne judgment where all those whose name that is not written in the book of life will be judged.

Then the end will be.

God will create a New Heaven and a New Earth and time will be no more as there will be no need of the sun or the moon to light the earth. God will be the light of it just as He was in the beginning.

There will be no time as we know it, only existence.

This is a very short story trying to answer your questions but there are many pages that could be presented. Which I don't have time and would probably upset someone if I tried to present it here.

Maybe some day a thread could be done on the events surrounding the return of Jesus.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by hERICtic, posted 07-04-2010 12:59 AM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by hERICtic, posted 07-04-2010 4:20 PM ICANT has responded

    
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 1160 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 439 of 479 (568158)
07-04-2010 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by hERICtic
07-04-2010 1:02 AM


Re: As many as the Lord our God will call to Himself
If you are so willing to lead me to Christ, then preaching does not work. Evidence does.

Then you are unwilling to be saved by the method that Christ gave to the Church to bring sinners into His salvation,

Rom 10:15 How will they preach unless they are sent ? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS !"
16 However, they did not all heed the good news ; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT ?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

I will leave to ICANT the foolishness of debating one who has no interest in the faith that comes from "hearing & receiving the word of Christ," especially the events that will preceed His return to establish His kingdom on earth, and final judgment for the unrighteous.

Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by hERICtic, posted 07-04-2010 1:02 AM hERICtic has not yet responded

    
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2681 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 440 of 479 (568159)
07-04-2010 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by ICANT
07-04-2010 3:51 PM


Re: Signs
hERICtic writes:
Jesus gives a long list of signs. What is the purpose of those signs?

ICANT writes:

Jesus was talking to His Church warning them of things to come and how they could avoid problems and loss of rewards.

You didnt answer the question. You threw out a ton of info, but actually avoided the question. You gave what the signs are, but not what their purpose is.

What is the purpose of the signs? There is one answer.

To let his disciples know when when the end times are to occur and when Jesus is returning.

Now, do you agree or disagree?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I then asked what the adomination that causes desolation?

You answered:

ICANT writes:

Daniel prophesied of a man that would rule the world. He would make an agreement with Israel and they will rebuild the Temple and return to Temple worship. The Temple must be rebuilt on the Temple site and will co-exist with the Mosque. This will last until he has been in power for 3 1/2 years at which time he will stand in the doorway of the Holy of Holies in the Temple and declare he is God and must be worshiped as such.

Luke proceeds to describe the desolation: Luke 21: When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

This occured in 70ad. Do you agree?

I asked if the end times (the return of Jesus) is a one time event?

You stated:

ICANT writes:

The end time is not the return of Jesus.

They are related. The end times are to occur, followed by the return of Jesus. So you're talking semantics here.

But let me rephrase. Are the end times a one time event? Yes, it may take a certain amount of time, but is it an event that will occur one time? After this event, will Jesus return?

Also, can you please show me where Jesus tells his disciples that they are his bride/church prior to Matthew 24.

Thanks.

Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2010 3:51 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2010 9:43 PM hERICtic has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 441 of 479 (568201)
07-04-2010 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by hERICtic
07-04-2010 4:20 PM


Re: Signs
Hi ERIC,

hERICtic writes:

You didnt answer the question. You threw out a ton of info, but actually avoided the question. You gave what the signs are, but not what their purpose is.

But I did give you the answer.

You asked what is the purpose of the foretold events (signs).

I said " His Church warning them of things to come and how they could avoid problems and loss of rewards."

Your answer was "To let his disciples know when when the end times are to occur and when Jesus is returning."

No man not even the angels know when Jesus is going to return.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

We can not know the day or the hour. We can get close if we are there by knowing what is happening. But the purpose is for us to be ready. There will be those who are asleep and will miss out on many rewards.

hERICtic writes:

Luke proceeds to describe the desolation: Luke 21: When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

This occured in 70ad. Do you agree?

I agree that Luke was talking about the destruction of the Temple in that took place in 70 AD.

Luke 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Luke only addressed the first question he did not even record the other two question. He did record some of the things pertaining to the other two questions. But his main attention was the destruction of the Temple and the Jews being scattered over the entire earth. Many being killed, made slaves, and the city would be trodden down until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

We are almost at that point today.

Luke does not mention the desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Nor did he address the return of Jesus or the end of the world.

The first question the disciples asked was, when shall these things be?

Matthew did not record the answer to this question as he was always more concerned with the kingdom.

The second question was, "what shall be the sign of thy coming"?

The third question was, "what shall be the sign of the end of the world?

There is no question concerning the end times.

hERICtic writes:

But let me rephrase. Are the end times a one time event? Yes, it may take a certain amount of time, but is it an event that will occur one time? After this event, will Jesus return?

If there is such a thing as the end times they began when God created mankind in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27. They will end when this universe melts with fervent heat and God creates a New Heaven and a New Earth. The amount of time passed would be like a pinpoint on a circle that goes around the universe if that circle represented eternity.

We think of that time as being a long time but to God it is all now.

jERICtic writes:

They are related. The end times are to occur, followed by the return of Jesus. So you're talking semantics here.

The end of time and Jesus return is at least a thousand years apart plus the time allowed for Satan to go out for his little season and deceive the nations to go up to Jerusalem to destroy it.

The end of time does not come until the Heavens and the Earth melt with fervent heat.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

hERICtic writes:

Also, can you please show me where Jesus tells his disciples that they are his bride/church prior to Matthew 24.


Jesus never call the disciples his bride/church.

Church Greek word ekklÁsia means 1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

So when Jesus called Andrew and Peter to come follow Him and He would make them fishers of men He had established His Church and it was with Him.

John the Baptist is the only one that refers to the disciples as the bride/church. He talks about Jesus having the bride and all he had was his called out disciples, which constituted a church.

Jhn 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

I do tend to get long winded.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by hERICtic, posted 07-04-2010 4:20 PM hERICtic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by jenisturt, posted 07-05-2010 2:35 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 444 by hERICtic, posted 07-05-2010 5:35 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
jenisturt
Junior Member (Idle past 3179 days)
Posts: 3
Joined: 07-05-2010


Message 442 of 479 (568260)
07-05-2010 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 441 by ICANT
07-04-2010 9:43 PM


Re: Signs
That's a very good explanation about the question that were raised here. I especially liked the explanation of the word "ekklÁsia", that's something new that I came to know about from here. I believe the way of God is completely mysterious and its none but Him, who will know about whats in store for each one of us. Believing the Bible is upon the person, but questioning the powers of God should not be something that this should result into.


christian worldview
This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2010 9:43 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 443 by ICANT, posted 07-05-2010 12:49 PM jenisturt has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 443 of 479 (568385)
07-05-2010 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by jenisturt
07-05-2010 2:35 AM


Re: Signs
Hi jenisturt,

Welcome to EvC.

jenisturt writes:

That's a very good explanation about the question that were raised here.

Thanks.

I have spent 60 years studying the Bible. Spending several of those years in Bible College studying Greek and Hebrew so I don't have to accept what someone else says.

The Bible is the Word of God and if it is not protected it will be so poluted in a few years that the truth will be hard to find. There are too many people translating the Bible today that do not know the God of the Bible and do not have the Holy Spirit to lead them in all truth.

Is that your web site?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by jenisturt, posted 07-05-2010 2:35 AM jenisturt has not yet responded

    
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2681 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 444 of 479 (568408)
07-05-2010 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by ICANT
07-04-2010 9:43 PM


Re: Signs
Hello again.....

ICANT writes:

You asked what is the purpose of the foretold events (signs).

I said " His Church warning them of things to come and how they could avoid problems and loss of rewards."

Your answer was "To let his disciples know when when the end times are to occur and when Jesus is returning."

But that doesnt exactly address my question. Warning them of what? Avoid what problems? What loss of rewards?

The signs were given for two reasons. In verse 3 his disciples ask: "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

1) The return of Jesus.
2) The end of the age.

The end of the age refers to the apocalypse so to speak, which shall preceed the return of Jesus.

How can Luke refer to the desolation in 70ad, when you claim Matthew didnt? Its the same speech.

Are you suggestion one of the authors quoted incorrectly or made an error?

ICANT writes:

The end of time and Jesus return is at least a thousand years apart plus the time allowed for Satan to go out for his little season and deceive the nations to go up to Jerusalem to destroy it.

We are not talking about the end of TIME, we are talking about the end of the age. The end times (I believe that term is not in scripture, I could be wrong though) are the events of chaos which occur before the return of Jesus.

You are refering to the time AFTER Jesus arrives.

ICANT writes:

Jesus never call the disciples his bride/church.

I agree. So how would his disciples know then they are his bride if he never called them that?

I ask bc you said the signs were for his church? Jesus is speaking DIRECTLY to his disciples and states "you".

Obviously, his disciples are then included in the speech.

ICANT writes:

I do tend to get long winded.

Hey, as long as you stay on topic.....keep typing away! I recently had a debate with someone else and he was quite long winded, bounced around, went off on tangents and avoided questions!

When Jesus returns, will it be with angels? Will he judge mankind?

ICANT writes:

No man not even the angels know when Jesus is going to return.

They may not know the exact hour or day, but a time frame can be established.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2010 9:43 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
barbara
Member (Idle past 2966 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 445 of 479 (571105)
07-30-2010 11:00 AM


Science evolution verses Religion
It is interesting to me why biologists accept the process of life's origin through evolution but do not see that science's origin is religion. The branching of when this occurred was Darwin's success in getting people to accept or consider it an alternative to explain life.
Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by jar, posted 07-30-2010 11:06 AM barbara has not yet responded
 Message 447 by crashfrog, posted 07-30-2010 6:17 PM barbara has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 446 of 479 (571106)
07-30-2010 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 445 by barbara
07-30-2010 11:00 AM


Re: Science evolution verses Religion
barbara writes:

It is interesting to me why biologists accept the process of life's origin through evolution but do not see that science's origin is religion.

HUH?

Sorry but that sounds like nonsense.

barabara writes:

The branching of when this occurred was Darwin's success in getting people to accept or consider it an alternative to explain life.

HUH?

That is so wrong in so many ways.

First, Darwin never got people to accept science as an explanation for life.

Second, science preceded Darwin by quite awhile.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by barbara, posted 07-30-2010 11:00 AM barbara has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 447 of 479 (571199)
07-30-2010 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by barbara
07-30-2010 11:00 AM


Re: Science evolution verses Religion
It is interesting to me why biologists accept the process of life's origin through evolution but do not see that science's origin is religion.

Observation of the natural world is the origin of religion. It's true that this was, and is, done by religious persons but their religion had little to do with it.

Indeed observation of the natural world has always been a threat to religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by barbara, posted 07-30-2010 11:00 AM barbara has not yet responded

  
DPowell
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 448 of 479 (585004)
10-05-2010 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by gragbarder
05-06-2010 11:36 PM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
First time back on the forum in...hmm, long time it seems. I am not about to read 300 posts to try to get caught back up, hah. But I do want to reply to my respondent.

Citing the KJV is not a good way to promote your Biblical scholarship. It is an outdated translation based on inferior manuscripts. There is a very clear reason that the modern translations include "nor the Son:" superior manuscript support.

On a second note, you are missing the point of the dialogue between Jesus and his disciples in vv.3-4. Jesus is not revealing to them that this will occur some time between 30 AD and 70 AD (although 70 AD was quite an interesting time for the people of Jerusalem). Jesus is not giving anything away at all about the exact time in history in which this would be taking place. When he speaks of "this generation" not passing away, he is speaking of the generation in which all of the signs begin to take place. The disciples certainly should have taken that as possibly referring to their generation, just as we should certainly take heed of the possibility of ours. But the bare fact is that we do not know when this is to take place. What will it look like? Wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines, etc. Believers will be killed in number for their faith. False Christs will come. Watch for the abomination that causes desolation. I think it is quite logical to think we may not be all that far from this time...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by gragbarder, posted 05-06-2010 11:36 PM gragbarder has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by gragbarder, posted 10-05-2010 4:34 AM DPowell has responded
 Message 454 by hERICtic, posted 10-05-2010 5:16 PM DPowell has responded

    
DPowell
Member (Idle past 3081 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 449 of 479 (585005)
10-05-2010 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by gragbarder
05-07-2010 5:36 PM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
Book of Matthew...28 chapters.
3 years of Jesus' life.
At this point, 2,000+ years of men to address.

Not.
Every.
Passage.
Addresses.
The Same Event.

Most of the ones you quoted were about the Second Coming. The original poster's question (on Matthew 16:27-28) asked about one specific pericope, which is in direct reference to the immediately subsequent pericope, the Transfiguration. The Transfiguration is a picture of Jesus in His fully glorified state of Son of God. Moses and Elijah, two Old Testament giants, come to meet (and to worship?) the glorified Son. This is a complete and coherent answer to the initial question.

I addressed Matthew 24 elsewhere. It speaks of the Second Coming, which will occur at a time unknown even to angels and the Son of God Himself (Matthew 24:36). Jesus describes the times of that generation, but He does not actually pinpoint the generation in history. That information belongs only to the Father.

Edited by DPowell, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by gragbarder, posted 05-07-2010 5:36 PM gragbarder has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by ringo, posted 10-05-2010 1:45 AM DPowell has responded
 Message 453 by gragbarder, posted 10-05-2010 4:39 AM DPowell has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 450 of 479 (585008)
10-05-2010 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 449 by DPowell
10-05-2010 1:06 AM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
DPowell writes:

Jesus describes the times of that generation, but He does not actually name pinpoint the generation in history.


If He was talking about "that" generation, why would He say "this" generation?


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by DPowell, posted 10-05-2010 1:06 AM DPowell has responded

Replies to this message:
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