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Author Topic:   a stupid question about dating
tomato
Member (Idle past 2812 days)
Posts: 39
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 1 of 16 (530527)
10-14-2009 12:31 AM


Yes, I know, "The only stupid question is the question which doesn't get asked."
Still, I'm afraid some of you will think this is stupid:
How could Paleozoic soil be older than Mesozoic soil, which in turn is older than Cenozoic soil?
Do volcanoes erupt newer soil over older soil?
Does the Earth receive newer soil from meteor showers, or what?

I feel hypocritical arguing that dinosaurs are found only in Mesozoic soil whereas cavemen are found only in Cenozoic soil; therefore cavemen could not have walked the earth alongside dinosaurs.
Could someone please tell me what I'm talking about?


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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 16 (530529)
10-14-2009 12:33 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the a stupid question about dating thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16111
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 3 of 16 (530533)
10-14-2009 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tomato
10-14-2009 12:31 AM


Soil is what sediment turns into as a result of subaerial weathering (i.e. being rained on repeatedly, and the chemical processes that go along with that) plus having stuff growing in it.

Volcanoes erupt volcanic ash, which is indeed turned into soil by these processes. Other sediments are produced by weathering and erosion, and then transported and deposited by water, wind, or glaciers. Pretty much any sediment once deposited can turn into soil given rain and enough time.

P.S: I wrote a short article about soils and paleosols (fossil soils) here.

P.P.S: Welcome to the forums.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


(2)
Message 4 of 16 (530656)
10-14-2009 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by tomato
10-14-2009 12:31 AM


You should be discussing rocks and not soil for the reasons Dr. A mentioned. Fossils are found in rocks.

There are 4 major divisions to geologic time that are most commonly discussed (from oldest to youngest): Precambrian (4.6 Ga to 542 Ma), Paleozoic (542 Ma to 251 Ma), Mesozoic (251 Ma to 65.5 Ma), and the Cenozoic (65.5 Ma to present). Each of these in turn can be broken down into smaller and smaller divisions. They too can be grouped into larger divisions. Check out the link I provided.

You have to visualize geologic time like a time line. At the beginning, the earth was molten and then it cooled. Very little is known about earth's beginnings, but eventually the earth had oceans. Somewhere in *middle* you have the fish, plant, and dinosaurs flourishing. At the very end, you have humans.

The oceans are not simply H2O, but a chemical soup, albeit composed primarily of saline water. But in the precambrian, the earth was young and the chemistry of the oceans was far different than today. So was the atmosphere, for that matter. As a result of chemical reactions occurring in the ocean, sediment was formed and this sediment was composed of carbonate minerals, silica (SiO2), iron, and other compounds. This sediment would have fallen to the ocean floor and built up over time. While some think the sediment would eventually fill up the ocean basins, this is not true. The basins sink due to the weight of the sediment and this allows the sediment to get thousands of feet thick.

During this time, life developed and as this life died, it also sunk to the bottom of the ocean to be buried in the sediment. Through a variety of processes and pressure, the soft sediment hardens, or lithifies, into rock. Eventually, life got more complex and continental land masses were formed, probably through volcanism. Volcanoes not only erupt ash, but lava as well. Both cool and both can form rocks. These land surfaces were weathered and eroded and formed soils and sediment of their own with their own chemical compositions. The sediment, similar to the sediment in the ocean, will also lithify over time. These are the Precambrian rocks. They are identified based on their fossil content,rock types (at times unusual), geochemistry, and their stratigraphic position located below rocks that contain abundant fossils displaying a great diversity life.

The Paleozoic includes the commonly discussed geologic periods, starting with the Cambrian and ending with the Permian. These sediments were laid down atop the older Precambrian sediments. It is entirely possible for the Paleozoic sediments to have been laid down on top of Precambrian sediments (not rocks) and to have been interbedded with them. After all, the division between the Precambrian and the Paleozoic was based primarily on the explosion of life evident in the Cambrian rocks. This explosion of life also affected the composition of the oceans and the atmosphere -- it significantly increased the amount of free oxygen. This was enough of a change as to be noticeable in the rocks.

As you move up through geologic time, the Mesozoic, Cenozoic, etc., sediments kept piling up on top of the older sediments and rocks. At the same time, life was evolving slowly but surely into diverse life forms. Within the sediments, organisms were buried and eventually fossilized as the sediments lithified into rocks. The older rocks contain the oldest examples of life. As the rocks get younger, they contain a changing array of life.

The youngest rocks would be those from the Cenozoic since those were laid down last as far as Eras go. Right under your feet and in the deep ocean basins and in volcanoes, rocks are forming. These are the youngest rocks and sit atop all the other rocks.

Today, we are living in the Holocene Epoch, of the Neogene Period, of the Cenozoic Era, of the Phanerozoic Eon. Today you can see the future rocks on the beaches, sand dunes, active and erupting volcanoes, alluvial fans coming off the highlands, river bars and beds, and so on.

As to the other part of your post, dinosaurs are found in Mesozoic rocks because that's the time period in which they lived; so when they died, they were buried in those [Mesozoic] sediments. The Mesozoic sediments eventually became Mesozoic rocks.

Because hominids did not evolve until some 4+ million years ago, they were buried essentially at the top of the geologic rock record, in the Cenozoic -- and still in the Neogene Period in which we also live.


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ICANT
Member (Idle past 118 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 5 of 16 (530669)
10-14-2009 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by roxrkool
10-14-2009 12:34 PM


Re: Oceans
Hi rox,

roxrkool writes:

You have to visualize geologic time like a time line. At the beginning, the earth was molten and then it cooled. Very little is known about earth's beginnings, but eventually the earth had oceans. Somewhere in *middle* you have the fish, plant, and dinosaurs flourishing. At the very end, you have humans.

Where did the water come from that produced those oceans?

Two sources has been put forth. Gases released from volcanoes contained water vapor, and small ice comets and frozen asteroids collided with the ancient Earth.

There is presently enough water in the mantel to fill all the oceans 7 times. That is a tremendous amount of water.

Is there any scientific verifiable evidence of where one drop of any of that water we have come from?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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Replies to this message:
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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 3226 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 6 of 16 (530678)
10-14-2009 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by tomato
10-14-2009 12:31 AM


Tomato, ICANT; ICANT, tomato
Welcome to EvC, tomato.

You're in good hands with both Dr. Adquate and roxrkool to disabuse you of any misconceptions you may have about soils as are with ICANT so cleverly demolishing your "The only stupid question…" theory.


It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
— Anon

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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5495
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 7 of 16 (530684)
10-14-2009 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
10-14-2009 12:59 PM


Re: Oceans
That is a tremendous amount of water.

Almost a sixth of one percent of the mass of the planet! Imagine that!

Hi, new guy!


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 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 10-14-2009 12:59 PM ICANT has responded

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ICANT
Member (Idle past 118 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 8 of 16 (530693)
10-14-2009 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Coragyps
10-14-2009 1:51 PM


Re: Oceans
Hi Coragyps,

Coragyps writes:

Almost a sixth of one percent of the mass of the planet! Imagine that!

ABE I forgot to mention your 1/6 of 1% is wrong. It is actually .184%. According to this Source.

Comparing the water to the mass of the earth makes it seem so small.

Lets look at it another way.

If you had all that water out of the mantel and on the surface of the earth, The top of Mt Everest which is 29,029 feet above sea level would be covered with 55,979 feet of water which is equal to 10.6+ miles.

I don't know about you but I think that is a tremendous amount of water that had to come from some where by some method.

I would still like to know if there is any scientific verifiable evidence of where it came from, and how it got here.

God Bless,

Edited by ICANT, : Provide correction and source


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 9 of 16 (530696)
10-14-2009 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ICANT
10-14-2009 2:27 PM


Re: Oceans
I have not really spent much time looking into where all the water came from, but have read about the various theories. I don't really consider it much of a problem, though.

I think that the water was likely present in the material from which the early earth formed. Water is not so rare in space. As the earth cooled, as magma does today, the volatile components (includes water) were exsolved. These components probably would have mobilized to areas of lower pressure where they remained for quitebi some time.

When conditions became such that water was able to exist for extended periods of time on the surface of the earth, it eventually built up into oceans. I don't know when that would have been. The oldest rocks we have are nearly 4 billion years old, but I think it's entirely possibly the earth could be substantially older than the 4.6 billion estimated today.

I think that comets and such probably delivered quite a bit of water to the early earth, but I don't think it constituted the majority.

If someone has a better idea, I'm open to that.

Edited by roxrkool, : No reason given.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16111
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 10 of 16 (530715)
10-14-2009 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
10-14-2009 12:59 PM


Re: Oceans
Oh, I was forgetting. Creationists can be wrong about everything. Even if it isn't relevant to the topic.

Sheesh.


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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 615 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 11 of 16 (530716)
10-14-2009 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ICANT
10-14-2009 2:27 PM


Re: Oceans
ABE I forgot to mention your 1/6 of 1% is wrong. It is actually .184%. According to this Source.

Dude, that is 1/6th of 1% to the margin of error implied by using a '1/6th'.


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Replies to this message:
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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 16 (530831)
10-15-2009 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by ICANT
10-14-2009 2:27 PM


Re: Oceans
ICANT writes:

I don't know about you but I think that is a tremendous amount of water that had to come from some where by some method.


Oh my GOSH ICANT!! Look at all this DIRT and ROCK! There is a tremendous amount of it, does that mean it had to come from somewhere by some method?

I think you need to examine your thinking a bit before you equate a bunch of stuff being somewhere with anything other than natural processes.

Edited by Phage0070, : No reason given.


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Peepul
Member (Idle past 3528 days)
Posts: 206
Joined: 03-13-2009


Message 13 of 16 (530840)
10-15-2009 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by roxrkool
10-14-2009 2:44 PM


Re: Oceans
I read something in new scientist recently that said that huge quantities of water may have been delivered by comet, based on analysis of moon cratering. The value quoted was around 3600m depth of cometary material across the whole surface of the earth.

This message is a reply to:
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ICANT
Member (Idle past 118 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 14 of 16 (530902)
10-15-2009 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dr Jack
10-14-2009 3:40 PM


Re: Oceans
Hi Jack,

Mr Jack writes:

Dude, that is 1/6th of 1% to the margin of error implied by using a '1/6th'.

Sorry Coragyps, and Jack I am going to have to stop pulling all nighters my mind is bad enough when I have proper rest. I wasn't thinking clear not that I have that much to think with to start with.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 15 of 16 (530923)
10-15-2009 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peepul
10-15-2009 8:32 AM


Re: Oceans
That's one possibility, and I'm sure that comets provide a significant amount of water to the earth. I'm just not convinced they provided all the water we have today.

This message is a reply to:
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