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Author Topic:   Precognition Causality Quantum Theory and Mysticism
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3296 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 166 of 237 (532531)
10-23-2009 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Straggler
10-23-2009 7:23 PM


Re: The Scientific Conspiracy?
His whole thing seems to be to take science to the masses by making people think that their anecdotes and wishful thinking are as valid as the closed minded experiments conducted by the biased scientific elite. His books and internet "research" are prime examples of this thinking.

In effect a million claims of telepthic dogs is worth more than a single double blind randomised trial. I mean that many people cannot be deluded or wrong can they? How dare scientists dismiss this overwhelming pool of evidence just to sustain their empire of exclusivity and knowledge.

You might as well ask people if their babies are cute as ask people to objectively assess whether or not their pets are "special".


Well, I'm assuming we're in agreement about Sheldrake then?

Disregarding the moneymakers, can we agree that if the phenomenon of telepathy could be studied under rigorous, scientific methodology and explained naturalistically, then telepathy is at least possible?


It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Straggler, posted 10-23-2009 7:23 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Straggler, posted 10-23-2009 7:43 PM Izanagi has not yet responded

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3296 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


(1)
Message 167 of 237 (532532)
10-23-2009 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by cavediver
10-23-2009 7:13 PM


Re: If I'm misinformed, whose fault is that?
Izanagi, what is telepathy?
Well, it's a transfer of thought or ideas between people.
Oh, how does that work?
Good question, it's a type of field.
Really, a field? How does it appear in the action?
Errr, what's an action???

Actually, I posited an naturalistic explanation in Message 138 for telepathy that no one apparently read. But then, I guess my posts are too stupid for people to read.

My idea is that brainwaves could be the root cause of telepathy. Since brainwaves can be measured, an experiment measuring the brainwaves of the dogs could be done.

ABE: The person who's marking my posts as ones, you're missing a few.

Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.


It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by cavediver, posted 10-23-2009 7:13 PM cavediver has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 168 of 237 (532533)
10-23-2009 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Izanagi
10-23-2009 7:15 PM


Re: Evidenced Possibility?
String Theory and MWI I am a little more skeptical of since I haven't read anything about evidence that directly supports those theories (although there was an interesting article I happened upon that said M-Theory could explain something about the Quantum-Critical State, which suggests to me that M-Theory might be falsifiable in the future).

These are mathematical conjectures. Not physical evidence of anything in themselves as such. But extrapolations of models that (to the best of our knowledge) work. However we have made major discoveries on exactly this basis before so these methods of prediction and discovery have "form".

In effect our models are based on reality and the extrapolation of these models provides us with possibilities that may or may not turn out to be further features of reality. Ultimately only experiment will tell. But these possibilities are objectively evidenced in the sense that they are directly and logically derived from the facts of reality as we know it to be.

And I am very skeptical of Sheldrake's explanation of morphic fields, because its vague and unfalsifiable

Morphic fields are no more derived from reality than is the proposition that immaterial goblins teleport around whispering information into the psychic ears of Sheldrake's test subjects. They are an ad-hoc pseudoscientific explanation. The only evidence for morphic fields is the phenomenon it seeks to explain. And that is a blatantly circular argument.

That said, if there is evidence for telepathy, then I think the phenomenon itself should be looked into and naturalistic explanations conceived.

Yes. But let no-one conflate the phenomenon under investigation and the irrefutable explanation for said phenomenon (i.e. morphic fields) such that one circularly becomes evidence for the other.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Izanagi, posted 10-23-2009 7:15 PM Izanagi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Izanagi, posted 10-23-2009 7:41 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1723 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 169 of 237 (532534)
10-23-2009 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Izanagi
10-23-2009 7:26 PM


Re: If I'm misinformed, whose fault is that?
In the future I hope you will refrain from insulting me for what you perceive to be gross misinformation on my part.

I only insult you for what IS gross misinformation on your part. You display a common net attitude of taking to heart what you read and then attempt to wield it with a completely undeserved authority. That is what I find insulting.

ABE: I have just seen this

And I'm telling you that loop quantum gravity also explains gravity without the extra dimensions. It seems to me that LQG is a better theory than string theory as it parsimonious.

thank fuck you are here to help us out. Jeez, the years I've spent bashing through the most horrendous mathematics to try to get som einsight into qunatum gravity, and Izanagi here has cracked it with a quick appeal to parsimony. Where the fuck were you when I needed you?

And you talk about me being insulting

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Izanagi, posted 10-23-2009 7:26 PM Izanagi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Izanagi, posted 10-23-2009 7:44 PM cavediver has responded
 Message 175 by Izanagi, posted 10-23-2009 7:55 PM cavediver has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1031 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 170 of 237 (532535)
10-23-2009 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Izanagi
10-23-2009 4:40 PM


Re: Dogs that Know experiments
And I'm telling you that loop quantum gravity also explains gravity without the extra dimensions. It seems to me that LQG is a better theory than string theory as it parsimonious.

It seems to you? Does it? Well fuck, ok then, lets shut down the theoretical physics departments around the world.

You missed the point. I don't care if QLT (which I actually like too) predicts gravity. The point here is that String MAKES A PREDICTION, telepathy does not. Why on earth did you introduce QLT into this?

From Peter Woit's blog about multiple universes (MWI):
quote:

According to a story in the Stanford Daily, the recent arXiv preprint mentioned here and discussed many other places on the web has given us two new scientific celebrities:
Two of Stanfordís physicists, Professor Andrei Linde and postdoctoral researcher Vitaly Vanchurin, have garnered recent celebrity-status in the scientific community for their recent discovery of the maximum number of alternate universes.
Instead of consulting experts in this field and getting quotes about how significant this pseudo-science is, the writer asks Stanford students, who do a much better job than the experts...

and about String Theory found here:

quote:

The experimental situation is best described with Pauli's phrase "it's not even wrong". No one has managed to extract any sort of experimental prediction out of the theory other than that the cosmological constant should probably be at least 55 orders of magnitude larger than experimental bounds. String theory not only makes no predictions about physical phenomena at experimentally accessible energies, it makes no predictions whatsoever. Even if someone were to gure out tomorrow how to build an accelerator capable
of reaching Planck-scale energies, string theorists would be able to do no better than give qualitative guesses about what such a machine might see. This situation leads one to question whether string theory really is a scienti c theory at all. At the moment it's a theory that cannot be falsi ed by any conceivable experimental result. It's not even clear that there is any possible theoretical development that would falsify the theory.

Lee Smolin on multiple universe:

quote:

"The scenario of many unobserved universes plays the same logical role as the scenario of an intelligent designer. Each provides an untestable hypothesis that, if true, makes something improbable seem quite probable."

and from his book, "The Trouble with Physics: the Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next"

quote:

Similarly, the claim that a vast number of string theories exist with a positive cosmological constant (the much-discussed "landscape") is far from secure. Yet some leading string theorists are willing, on the basis of these weak results, to make grand pronouncements about string theory's success and future prospects.

Phillip Warren Anderson in his article to the NYT:

quote:

Is string theory a futile exercise as physics, as I believe it to be? It is an interesting mathematical specialty and has produced and will produce mathematics useful in other contexts, but it seems no more vital as mathematics than other areas of very abstract or specialized math, and doesn't on that basis justify the incredible amount of effort expended on it.
My belief is based on the fact that string theory is the first science in hundreds of years to be pursued in pre-Baconian fashion, without any adequate experimental guidance. It proposes that Nature is the way we would like it to be rather than the way we see it to be; and it is improbable that Nature thinks the same way we do.

Sheldon Glashow and a quote from his interview with NOVA:

quote:

The string theorists have a theory that appears to be consistent and is very beautiful, very complex, and I don't understand it. It gives a quantum theory of gravity that appears to be consistent but doesn't make any other predictions. That is to say, there ain't no experiment that could be done nor is there any observation that could be made that would say, "You guys are wrong." The theory is safe, permanently safe. I ask you, is that a theory of physics or a philosophy?

And another:

quote:

But in and of itself, it has failed in its primary goal, which is to incorporate what we already know into a consistent theory that explains gravity as well. The new theory must incorporate the old theory and say something more. String theory has not succeeded in this fashion. String theory has said something more, but it does not incorporate the details of the structure that preceded it, that is to say the standard theory of elementary particles. Until it does that, it is not yet physics in a conventional form. It is a perhaps promising corner of physics that may some day say things about the world. But today they're saying things about string theory to one another.

Lawrence Krauss about his debate against Brian Greene:

quote:

The debate is twofold. A: Does string theory have anything to do with the real world. And B: Is it, as I like to put it, ready for prime time? Is it worth all the hype and has it made any progress? I think the answer is no. It's been incredibly unsuccessful. It's a theory in crisis ó it hasn't really achieved any of its major goals as espoused 20 years ago. I'm not saying a physicist shouldn't be looking at this stuff. I just think it's not worthy of a lot of attention. Now, there are no really good alternatives, but I can guarantee when there is, everyone is going to drop string theory like a hot potato and go onto something else.

And Carlo Rovelli about string theory:

quote:

Many string theorists believe that it is impossible to quantize gravity in 3+1 dimensions without creating these artifacts. This is not proven, and it is also unproven that the matter artifacts, predicted by string theory, are exactly the same as observed matter.

Yes, and as I suspected, NOT ONE OF THEM calls it pseudoscience as you claimed.

Thanks for proving me right.

Astrophysicists saw the Universe was expanding faster than models predicted and hypothesized dark energy to explain it. This is analogous to Straggler's contention that Sheldrake saw a phenomenon and hypothesized telepathy to explain it.

Energy and matter are both well understood, and are both capable of forcing the universe to expand. Are you being thrown off by the mysterious use of the word "dark"?

It's matter and energy. Now, what's telepathy?

And apparently it's still incomplete, sort of like the description for telepathy.

Oh, OK. Then tell me at least what the field that telepathy uses is? Or, just tell me ANYTHING about how it works.

Yet you accept M-Theory despite the fact that it is incomplete.

I am not qualified to accept or reject those theories. The math is way to advanced for me. Personally, I thought QLT was easier to understand.

So why can you accept an incomplete M-Theory and not an incomplete concept of telepathy?

There is NO concept for telepathy equal to that of M-theory, incomplete or otherwise.

What's dark matter? What's dark energy?

Matter and energy...do you not recognize those 2 things in the name? It's not describing something supernatural.

What mechanisms do they use?

- Do you even know what you're asking for at this point?

What "mechanism" do neutrinos use? Here, I'll give you the definition of neutrinos and see if you could tell me what mechanism they use:

They are elementary particles that often travel close to the speed of light, lack an electric charge, are able to pass through ordinary matter almost undisturbed and are thus extremely difficult to detect. Neutrinos have a minuscule, but nonzero mass.

Any clue yet? I hope you're going with the conclusion that asking what mechanism neutrinos use is a nonsensical question.

Likewise, asking what mechanism dark matter/energy use is also a nonsensical question.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Izanagi, posted 10-23-2009 4:40 PM Izanagi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Izanagi, posted 10-23-2009 7:48 PM onifre has responded

    
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3296 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 171 of 237 (532536)
10-23-2009 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Straggler
10-23-2009 7:39 PM


Re: Evidenced Possibility?
Then we are in agreement. Haha, apparently a whole night spent arguing and it turns out we agree. The silliness of life.


It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Straggler, posted 10-23-2009 7:39 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 172 of 237 (532537)
10-23-2009 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Izanagi
10-23-2009 7:32 PM


Re: The Scientific Conspiracy?
Well, I'm assuming we're in agreement about Sheldrake then?

So it seems

Disregarding the moneymakers, can we agree that if the phenomenon of telepathy could be studied under rigorous, scientific methodology and explained naturalistically, then telepathy is at least possible?

Yes. See Telepthay (Message 112).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Izanagi, posted 10-23-2009 7:32 PM Izanagi has not yet responded

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3296 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 173 of 237 (532538)
10-23-2009 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by cavediver
10-23-2009 7:40 PM


Re: If I'm misinformed, whose fault is that?
I only insult you for what IS gross misinformation on your part. You display a common net attitude of taking to heart what you read and then attempt to wield it with a completely undeserved authority.

The you should correct that gross misinformation on my part by pointing me to where I can find better information. I assume that's the job of a teacher, not to insult the student for making a wrong statement, right?

I don't take to heart what I read. I read about one subject over multiple sites to make sure the information is corroborated. If all those sites I go to agree, then what am I supposed to do?


It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by cavediver, posted 10-23-2009 7:40 PM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by cavediver, posted 10-23-2009 7:59 PM Izanagi has responded

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3296 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 174 of 237 (532539)
10-23-2009 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by onifre
10-23-2009 7:40 PM


Re: Dogs that Know experiments
Now, what's telepathy?

I explained what I think telepathy is. To me, it could be specific brainwave patterns. We can test for brainwaves. The explanation lies in the natural world. It is falsifiable.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by onifre, posted 10-23-2009 7:40 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by onifre, posted 10-23-2009 7:56 PM Izanagi has responded

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3296 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 175 of 237 (532541)
10-23-2009 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by cavediver
10-23-2009 7:40 PM


Re: If I'm misinformed, whose fault is that?
Izanagi here has cracked it with a quick appeal to parsimony. Where the fuck were you when I needed you?

That seems odd, because I've noticed a few threads about Evolution that suggest that parsimony is a desired quality in a theory. Is that wrong?

ABE: Ah, nevermind... misread

Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.


It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by cavediver, posted 10-23-2009 7:40 PM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by cavediver, posted 10-23-2009 8:19 PM Izanagi has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1031 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 176 of 237 (532542)
10-23-2009 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Izanagi
10-23-2009 7:48 PM


Re: Dogs that Know experiments
I explained what I think telepathy is. To me, it could be specific brainwave patterns.

Brainwave patterns that do what, travel to someone elses brain?

We can test for brainwaves.

They do. Brainwaves are contained in your head. Is telepathy "travelling brainwaves"...?

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Izanagi, posted 10-23-2009 7:48 PM Izanagi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Izanagi, posted 10-23-2009 8:07 PM onifre has responded

    
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1723 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 177 of 237 (532543)
10-23-2009 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Izanagi
10-23-2009 7:44 PM


Re: If I'm misinformed, whose fault is that?
The you should correct that gross misinformation on my part by pointing me to where I can find better information. I assume that's the job of a teacher, not to insult the student for making a wrong statement, right?

You are most certainly not my student. But those students of mine who have taken it upon themselves to spout bullshit with authority have been well and truly insulted. Don't confuse making mistakes with causing others to make mistakes, because of your own erroneous proclamations.

But here's a correction of something I have only just noticed - you seem to have a very wrong understanding of MWI, and seem to think it has something to do with multiverses and the Landscape. It doesn't...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Izanagi, posted 10-23-2009 7:44 PM Izanagi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Izanagi, posted 10-23-2009 8:16 PM cavediver has not yet responded

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3296 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 178 of 237 (532544)
10-23-2009 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by onifre
10-23-2009 7:56 PM


Re: Dogs that Know experiments
They do. Brainwaves are contained in your head. Is telepathy "travelling brainwaves"...?

How should I know, I never gave it much thought.

But the fact that you are now mocking my, what I am assuming is, a naturalistic explanation tells me you won't consider the argument. MRI scans, EEG readings are ways we can see if there's anything going on in the brain during the supposed "telepathic" event. The explanation is rooted in the natural world and therefore falsifiable. Do the experiments and prove me wrong and it wouldn't matter one lick to me.


It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by onifre, posted 10-23-2009 7:56 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by onifre, posted 10-23-2009 8:32 PM Izanagi has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 179 of 237 (532545)
10-23-2009 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Kitsune
10-23-2009 1:54 PM


Re: Prediction Vs Post-Hoc Analysis
At least one person seems to be open to some of the evidence here.

Do you at least agree that in subsequent tests Sheldrake should be able to make "blind" predictions about the leaving time of the owner based on the behaviour of the dog alone if his hypothesis is true?

Surely even you can see that this is more objective than simply correlating two sets of data and applying the statistical analysis required to get the desired answer?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Kitsune, posted 10-23-2009 1:54 PM Kitsune has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Izanagi, posted 10-23-2009 8:20 PM Straggler has responded
 Message 193 by Kitsune, posted 10-25-2009 7:55 AM Straggler has responded

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3296 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 180 of 237 (532546)
10-23-2009 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by cavediver
10-23-2009 7:59 PM


Re: If I'm misinformed, whose fault is that?
You are most certainly not my student. But those students of mine who have taken it upon themselves to spout bullshit with authority have been well and truly insulted. Don't confuse making mistakes with causing others to make mistakes, because of your own erroneous proclamations.

I may not be, but if you had any interest in helping us lowly and common netizens truly understand those concepts, then you would have put me on the right track. The fact that you didn't only tells me that you don't care if we get the correct information and are only interested in insulting people who haven't taken multiple classes in QM. Good for you for picking on someone and not helping to understand the field better. Good for you for showing that elitist nature of scientists.

The question I ask is have you done anything to solve the ignorance on my part? You seem capable of only criticizing, even when a person genuinely wants to learn. So good for you in instilling in people the desire to find the correct information so that they can better understand things.


It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by cavediver, posted 10-23-2009 7:59 PM cavediver has not yet responded

  
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