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Author Topic:   Clades and Kinds
Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 29 of 143 (530991)
10-15-2009 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by slevesque
10-15-2009 3:35 PM


The finest Barimonologists
Imagine they developped wings, and then feathers, and then bills, and then an aerial-respiratory system, etc. etc. and in fact its descendants would be what everyone today would call a 'bird'. Would it be rational to still call it the same 'kind' ?
Well, given that as you posted before, your side's finest Barimonologists think that the emergence entirely novel biochemical and anatomical structures doesn't consistute a different kind (that'd be those C3 and C4 plants) and that over doubling in size, losing 4 toes, altering the dentition, changing from a browser into a grazer and acquiring specialised energy conservation mechanisms in the leg joints doesn't constitute a different kind (that'd be the transition form Hyracotherium to Equus, I'd say that if your finest Bariminologists count as rational people then we've empirical evidence that, yes, it would.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 46 of 143 (531082)
10-16-2009 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by slevesque
10-15-2009 11:24 PM


Because, from a creationist point of view, if we would let 30millions years go by, there would be no mega-changes in the species you would end up with. Maybe bigger cows, smaller cows, fatter cows, etc. Wooly cows maybe. But I would not expect a winged cow, or an underwater breathing cow etc.
But this is not true. As I pointed out in my earlier post you brushed off, Creationist "researchers" working on Bariminology believe that major biochemical and anatomical change can occur within a kind.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 47 of 143 (531083)
10-16-2009 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by slevesque
10-15-2009 11:09 PM


Lineage is biology; biology is lineage.
This is kinda odd, it seems as though clade focuses only on lineage and not really biology.
The two are inseperable. You cannot understand the biology of an organism without understanding its lineage and relationships to other organisms. This fundamental understanding has driven a vast expansion of our knowledge. Figuring out how hox genes function in fruit flies has illuminated the role and function hox genes in humans. Understanding limb differentiation in sharks and chickens has explained limb formation in humans. Picking apart the DNA transcription and translation systems of Archaea has shed fresh light on the systems of Eukaryotes which are, in turn, studied in yeast which because of their deep shared history with us helps us understand our own systems. Mitochondria don't make sense until you understand that they were once free living bacteria captured by endosymbiosis in an ancient Eukaryotic cell.
The list goes on, and on, and on.
When Dobzhiansky (a Christian who believed that God created the universe) said "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" he was entirely right.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 55 of 143 (531181)
10-16-2009 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ICANT
10-16-2009 11:45 AM


Re: Lineage is biology; biology is lineage.
If that statement is true, how can any evolutionist understand anything about any creature as he does not know how life began to exist?
Ah, but I didn't say understand anything about, I said understand. There's lots you can do before you understand the reasons why, you could know the earth goes round the sun without knowing about gravity, you can know that matches burn without understanding combustion and oxidation, etc., etc.
There's a lot my don't understand about life precisely because we don't know what it evolved from. We don't know why ATP is used as the universal energy transfer molecule and we don't know why the particular bases used in DNA are used, or why DNA uses thymine but RNA uracil just for example and the reason we don't know a fair portion of these things is that we don't know what they evolved from.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 81 of 143 (531384)
10-17-2009 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ICANT
10-17-2009 12:30 PM


Re: Nested clades
I believe there was at least a pair of Horses, ass's, and zebras on the ark.
Horses and ass's have been domesticated since they came off the ark.
Nobody has ever been able to truly domesticate the zebra.
So there was a Horse kind, a ass kind and a zebra kind on the ark.
There was not just a pair of something from which all three divided from.
All the other creatures would have been the same.
Good for you. It's nonsense, of course, but unlike the Baramin notion of kind it's completely tortured and invented nonsense.
But it leaves the question: how do you get those millions of creatures onto the Ark?

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