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Author Topic:   Clades and Kinds
NosyNed
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Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 22 of 143 (530950)
10-15-2009 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by slevesque
10-15-2009 3:22 PM


Read it again.
What I can say, is that Shannon information is an incomplete description of the reality of information.
You are correct that it is heading off topic here but your post shows not the slightest hint that you even read the post you replied to.
He was talking about any definition of information that meets the conditions given.
You clearly already agree with condition 3. DNA does, to you, contain a thing called information.
Which of the other 2 do you disagree with?
Does a DNA string of zero length still contain "information" -- however you choose to define it?
Do two identical strings of DNA contain different amounts of this "information" thing?
Which of them do you disagree with?

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 Message 20 by slevesque, posted 10-15-2009 3:22 PM slevesque has replied

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 44 of 143 (531076)
10-16-2009 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by slevesque
10-15-2009 3:36 PM


Information off topic so....
There is a place to discuss information in DNA now.
Message 1
Could you answer the couple of questions there?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 45 of 143 (531078)
10-16-2009 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by slevesque
10-16-2009 12:42 AM


Bird Odds
Of course, the probabilities of them becoming birds is very small, virtually impossible. But the probability that they evolve into something recognizably similar to another species we have today is probably pretty good. Convergent evolution happens often in an evolutionary perspective.
No, the probability of cows becoming birds is zero, exactly zero.
Birds are a defined clade. Cows may lighten up a bit, grow 3 pairs of humongous wings and fly or even end up looking like black and white spotted crows but they can never, ever be defined as being a bird even if they look identical.

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 Message 56 by slevesque, posted 10-16-2009 1:00 PM NosyNed has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 57 of 143 (531194)
10-16-2009 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by slevesque
10-16-2009 1:00 PM


Re: Bird Odds
Ok, I'm starting to understand.
So in this case then, clades cannot be equated with kinds, since if the descendants of cows where to be biologically similar to birds, it would be inappropriate to call them cows.
But, as you said, in the clades system, they would still have to be called cows. So there is a non-negligeable difference between the two terms.
Since I have no useful definition of "kinds" I can't tell what the difference between clades and kinds are.
Note that we have a real world example (well, sort of, we can't push this too far) of your flying cows.
The marsupials have converged on very similar body plans to many of the placental mammals. We have "dogs", "cats", "mice" etc. However, this is only a very superficial similarity. A taxonomist would never group them with the placentals.
The same would be true of the crow-sized flying cow. It may look strikingly like a bird (because you can't fly if you are the size of a cow and don't have some kind of wing) but is it enormously unlikely (zero near enough) that it would be internally like a bird. A taxonomist would recognize the difference.

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 Message 60 by slevesque, posted 10-16-2009 1:24 PM NosyNed has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 62 of 143 (531248)
10-16-2009 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by slevesque
10-16-2009 1:24 PM


Re: Bird Odds
Of course, but we are doing a theoretical mind game here. Because, in theory, it could be possible tht the descendants of a cow would be just like birds. And when I say just like birds, I mean externally and internally, and the only differences that would be present would be on the same scale as birds have between one another.
Would it still have to be called a cow ?
There are two possibilities:
1) There is no evolutionary possible path from current cows to anything even a bit like a bird.
If I had to choose I'd say that this is the case but there is no way that I can think of of knowing.
That is, the odds are actually zero. Period -- zero.
2) There is a path but it has a pretty small but not calculable probability.
This is also a "I don't know" path. Again if I had to choose I'd pick an utterly astronomically small likelyhood but still admit it isn't calculable.
If it looked just like a bird in all ways then a taxonimist would have nothing to go on to classify it as anything but a bird. However, by the definition of clade (as I understand it) s/he would be wrong.
The difference between a creationist's answer to this and that of a biologist now becomes a joke. Who cares if the creationist say chance of the path "theoretically" described is zero and the biologist says it can't happen by normal evolutionary processes in 10 universe lifetimes. The difference between the two views is close enough to zero.
However, why make up silly things to discuss?
As noted we have real world examples in convergent evolution.♠

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 Message 60 by slevesque, posted 10-16-2009 1:24 PM slevesque has replied

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 86 of 143 (531678)
10-19-2009 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Dr Adequate
10-19-2009 5:00 AM


Not independent
It seems that cladistics isn't useful in support of evolution since it assumes evolution? Comments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-19-2009 5:00 AM Dr Adequate has replied

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