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Author Topic:   Foundations of ID
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 213 (203204)
04-27-2005 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jerry Don Bauer
04-27-2005 7:09 PM


Sounds like a start.
yup...I don't get this part:
quantum mechanics now provides evidence of an observer to provide the wave-collapse function to make matter solid in the universe.
can you explain (possibly in your own words)(without reference to a website) what the wave-collapse function is and how its involved in what this statement says...
I did a lttle web surfing of the wave colapse function but I thought it might be easier for you to just tell me what this statement means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 04-27-2005 7:09 PM Jerry Don Bauer has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 213 (203514)
04-28-2005 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jerry Don Bauer
04-28-2005 12:06 AM


God post, very well explained.
I've seen the double slit expereriment in a class before and the part about the detectors determining which slit the photon went through and the pattern not happening(wave colapse) was not mentioned. I find it hard to believe that the interference pattern goes away when you observe what slit the photon goes through unless the detectors are affecting the photons and the detectors are the cause for the pattern to disappear. I don't buy it that the waves 'know' when they are being observed and then collapse into particles.
Next I place a detector at each slit to determine which slit the photon passes through on its way to the film so I can understand what is happening. But when the experiment is arranged in this way, the interference pattern disappears -- for reasons still not well understood, when the photon is not being observed, it acts as a wave but when detectors are placed at each slit to observe the photon, the wave function collapses and it acts only as a single particle! Thus, how the particle behaves seems to depend on whether that particle is being observed or not. How do particles know when they are, or are not being observed?
This seems to suggest that the detectors are affecting the photons. Perhaps when the photon hits the detector it messes up the interference pattern it would have made.
Also, I don't see how you go from this:
if photons are to be particles rather than waves as they sometimes are, it requires a conscious observer to collapse the wave-function--to make the reality of our universe, real indeed.
to this:
It seems that for our universe to exist as it does at all, the universe must be observed by a supreme, conscious observer.
It seems like a pretty big jump to me. In order for waves to act as particles we have to be observing them, so in order for the universe to exist god has to be oberving it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 04-28-2005 12:06 AM Jerry Don Bauer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 04-28-2005 11:03 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 204 by derwood, posted 05-16-2005 3:45 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 213 (203785)
04-29-2005 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jerry Don Bauer
04-28-2005 11:03 PM


The photon doesn't hit the detector. The detector is just there to observe the photon as it goes by.
The detectors I'm familiar with, the photon does hit the detector. Thats how it detects it. Anyways, the detector has to interact with the photon in some way to get a detection, and that interaction could be what is interupting the interference pattern.
If it takes an observer to collapse a wave into a particle (energy to matter) and since there is matter in our universe that is exhibiting that form rather than its energy persona, it follows that an observer has collapsed those waves
Collapsing a light wave into a photon is not the same as collapsing energy to matter. Photons do not have mass. So you cannot conclude that matter requires an observer to collapse it into energy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 04-28-2005 11:03 PM Jerry Don Bauer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 04-29-2005 7:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 213 (203786)
04-29-2005 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Jerry Don Bauer
04-29-2005 5:12 PM


But the radar waves DO hit the cops detector when they bounce back from your car just as they do when they (or light waves, or whatever that particular detector is using) bounce off a photon or electron.
You need to know how the detector detects the photon to determine if it is simply observation that is disrupting the interference pattern. You have to rule out the possibility that the detector is at fault.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 04-29-2005 5:12 PM Jerry Don Bauer has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 213 (203808)
04-29-2005 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Jerry Don Bauer
04-29-2005 7:22 PM


You're are grasping at straws here, CS, simply because science seems to be upsetting your belief system.
Well, its not. My belief system is just fine.
Could be doesn't cut it, CS. Do you have experimental evidence to show that the detector is collapsing the wave other than by observation? You are still on the argument from incredulity here.
I'm not trying to prove you wrong. You are the one who is doing the arguing so you look up the evidence. This thread seems to be trying to convince people of ID and I'm just saying that I'm not convinced and this is why. I'm not gonna spend time looking up experimental evidence to prove you wrong.
Here's what I'm getting from you:
When the double slit experiment is performed an interference pattern emerges. When detectors are placed to observe what slit the photon goes through then the pattern goes away. It must be the observation that is interfering the pattern. So, there must be an observer for the whole universe.
Here's what I see:
When the double slit experiment is performed an interference pattern emerges. When detectors are placed to observe what slit the photon goes through then the pattern goes away. It must be the detector that is interfering the pattern. And then I say that I don't understand how you jump from the light wave-particle duality to the whole universe.
electrons have been used as well in these experiments and you cannot argue they are not matter
Electrons are not matter. They are point charges that have no mass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 04-29-2005 7:22 PM Jerry Don Bauer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 04-29-2005 8:56 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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