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Author Topic:   Information Changes in DNA by logical Analysis
Percy
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Posts: 19111
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 76 of 80 (531864)
10-20-2009 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Dr Jack
10-20-2009 9:25 AM


Re: Must resist fist of pedantry... failing...
Mr Jack writes:

Actually, it's very much the other way round. The axiomatic construction of numbers is constructed on the basis of ordering.

So applying similar pedantry to ordering information, I think in the absence of a proposed method we must consider as undemonstrated the claim that information can be ordered without defining how it is quantified.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Dr Jack, posted 10-20-2009 9:25 AM Dr Jack has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by JonF, posted 10-20-2009 12:42 PM Percy has responded

  
JonF
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Posts: 5627
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 77 of 80 (531906)
10-20-2009 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Percy
10-20-2009 9:37 AM


Re: Must resist fist of pedantry... failing...
I think in the absence of a proposed method we must consider as undemonstrated the claim that information can be ordered without defining how it is quantified.

Yup. And we must consider as undemonstrated that information must be quantified to order it. We don't even know if information as any particular creationist conceives it can be ordered or quantified. All we can know is that, in order to meaningfully claim that some process has or has not increased information, that information must be quantified and/or ordered.

That final step is, of course, the step that few creationists even attempt. And those that do attempt it unfailingly end up with someone else demonstrating a process that does increase that particular creationist's version of information.

My only real point here is that "you must quantify information in order to claim it has or has not increased" is not true. "You must quantify or order information in order to claim it has or has not increased" is true.


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 Message 76 by Percy, posted 10-20-2009 9:37 AM Percy has responded

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 Message 78 by Percy, posted 10-21-2009 8:39 AM JonF has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19111
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 78 of 80 (532086)
10-21-2009 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by JonF
10-20-2009 12:42 PM


Re: Must resist fist of pedantry... failing...
So what's the answer? Is there one? How do you help someone understand that new information can be created when they don't understand information theory or even have a useful definition of information?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by JonF, posted 10-20-2009 12:42 PM JonF has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Wounded King, posted 10-21-2009 8:42 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 80 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-22-2009 3:08 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2438 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 79 of 80 (532087)
10-21-2009 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Percy
10-21-2009 8:39 AM


Don't even know enough to be wrong
How do you help someone understand that new information can be created when they don't understand information theory or even have a useful definition of information?

For an ongoing example see Kaichos man's recent thread, Adding information to the genome..

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Percy, posted 10-21-2009 8:39 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 80 of 80 (532212)
10-22-2009 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Percy
10-21-2009 8:39 AM


Re: Must resist fist of pedantry... failing...
So what's the answer? Is there one? How do you help someone understand that new information can be created when they don't understand information theory or even have a useful definition of information?

You point out to them that even if they do not have a useful definition of information, then nonetheless any useful definition of information must at least fulfill the axioms stated in the OP.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Percy, posted 10-21-2009 8:39 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
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