The Psychology Behind the Belief in Heaven and Hell

quote:

---

"a simple reading" - also known as making this shit up as I go along.

---

The making stuff up part is all EMA, not the simple reading. The simple reading says the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. Four times it says that.Exodus 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, and 11:10.In 10:1, God even gave the reason. The simple reading says the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. I don't know where the other fiction is coming from.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

God could do anything he wants in the first place, if God did something directly to Pharoah without Pharoahs choice, why set choices before him in the first place. That is why not just make Pharoah submit to his will without all the choices. Your argument is nonsensical

---

Because that's the way God wanted to do it per Exodus 10:1 and 11:9. I didn't make up why God did it that way, it is all right there in the book. You question God's methods? God did it his way, not your way.I forgot one other spot where Pharaoh's heart was hardened, Exodus 14:10. If Pharaoh had given in too early, there would be no passover and no parting of the red sea. Yes, God could have done those first for the sake of the rituals, but he didn't.These texts tell us that God influenced Pharaoh's decisions concerning the Hebrews. I don't see that Pharaoh truly had free will.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

You cant be serious in this statement. My question was if God purposely and directly hardened his heart with no choice of Pharoahs, why give him a choice in the first place?

---

And I replied, because that's the way God wanted to do it per Exodus 10:1 and 11:9. (And Exodus 7) I didn't make up why God did it that way, it is all right there in the book. God did it his way, not your way.Even though you didn't consider my statement serious, if Pharaoh had let the Israelites go the first time he was ordered, the story would have been very uneventful. No miracles, no passover, no parting the waters. God wanted to flex his muscles and to do that Pharaoh had to be stubborn and not let the Israelites go until the time was right for God.

quote:

---

here is another simple question. If Pharoah had obeyed God, wouuld it be necessary for him to do any of the plauges?. Think about it logically

---

It's irrelevant, but I already covered that in Message 291. You didn't take the thought seriously. God wanted to do it that way. Read the story.Right at the beginning of the story God says he will harden Pharaoh's heart. (Exodus 4:21) In the story, God is very clear why he caused Pharaoh to be stubborn. It served a purpose.From Message 298

quote:

---

Maybe, just maybe, (call me crazy)God gave Pharoah a choice because that is the normal, natural, logical and reasonable thing to do in the first place, as a rational. longsuffering God. Call me nutty.

---

What true choice was Pharaoh given without interference? (Verses please.)Moses asked him to let the Israelites to go to the desert to worship.Pharaoh didn't know who God was. How can there be a choice. All Pharaoh saw was the loss of his slave labor. The first warning isn't really aimed at Pharaoh. God wanted to show his strength to Pharaoh and the Israelites. Whether you agree with God's methods or not, that's what the book says several times. God had a plan to show his power to Pharaoh and the Israelites. Pharaoh didn't have a choice in the Exodus event.If I understand what Onifire is saying, God caused a determining factor that dictated what Pharaoh would choose to do. Pharaoh was a pawn for the plan.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

What difference does this make? We are disputing the justification of it from a human perspective not from strictly a Biblical perspective.

​

Our beef so to speak from a humanist point of view is that we don't believe these rules should be as black and white as what Christian fundamentalists make them out to be with no consideration for the conditions, motives or background behind the infractions. The same point of view can be said of the religious justification in their belief in heaven and hell.

​

In other words, how can a good god condemn all of humanity to hell for breaking simple rules such as stealing bread or lying to protect another humans life? This is what is called in legal terms "the reasonable person standard"? If this type of thinking doesn't hold up in our human courts why should we expect any less from a supposedly all-knowing, all-good, all-present supernatural entity?

---

Righteous lying is supported in the Bible.
Rahab and the spies. (Joshua 6)
Elisha lied to the soldiers with God's help. (2 Kings 6:18 - 20)
Hebar’s wife lied to Sisera. (Judges 4)
God commanded Moses to lie to Pharaoh. (Exodus 3:18)
Jesus lied to his brothers. (John 7:2-10)The point of the "doing good on the Sabbath" story was precisely what you're talking about. (Mark 3, Luke 14) Spirit of the law vs letter of the law. Gotta use common sense.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz