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Author Topic:   The Psychology Behind the Belief in Heaven and Hell
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 20 of 410 (531405)
10-17-2009 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by DevilsAdvocate
10-16-2009 6:39 PM


Re: I suspect that most Christians do not truely believe in Hell
I agree with almost everything you've said. I've often thought about the nature of hell and whether a loving God can justify such a punishment. When you consider that the salvation through Jesus was not instantly available to anyone outside of the Middle East, it seems that only a sadistic God would allow millions to live and die without hope of going to Heaven since the Bible says that only through Jesus is salvation possible. I mean, what kind of God would only allow salvation through one person upon which the knowledge of that person has taken 2000 years to spread throughout the world?
Then too, there are people who aren't Christians that have led praiseworthy lives (following many of the morals that Christ taught), people like Ghandi. I cannot believe a just and loving God would allow Ghandi to go to Hell for not believing but allow someone like Hans Frank to go to Heaven if Frank found God.
That's why I think many Christians believe it's more important for a person, any person, to follow the teachings of Christ and live life as a good person. I like to believe that a just and loving God will look at the life of the person and to see if that person tried to be honest, compassionate, and upstanding and determine from that whether or not to allow someone into Heaven.
As far as Hell, I probably am one of the Christians that hasn't really thought about it that much. The concept of eternal punishment makes me uneasy. I like the Jewish afterlife better, in this case, which is that people go to Gehenna and suffer there for some time to clear away the sins, then off we go to Heaven and that this holds true for all people, except the very wicked, regardless if you believe in God or not (the Jews that I've talked with believe this anyway.) This view because it makes more sense to me than eternal punishment.

It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-16-2009 6:39 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by iano, posted 10-17-2009 5:49 PM Izanagi has replied

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 22 of 410 (531454)
10-18-2009 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by iano
10-17-2009 5:49 PM


Re: I suspect that most Christians do not truely believe in Hell
Have you tried thinking about whether a wrathful against evil/sin God could justify such a punishment?
Then why is forgiveness divine? If God can stay angry at someone for an eternity, why can't I stay angry at someone for a lifetime? If God was all wrath and no love, then I could see the argument for eternal damnation. But if God is also love, how can you argue it? It would seem that, depending on the infraction, a person's time in hell would be proportional to the sins committed against God. That's how I imagine a just and loving God would operate.
If this includes Abraham, saved through Christ but who lived before Christ was born, it includes everyone who is saved: anywhere, anytime.
And how is this achieved? Think Mayans before the Europeans went to the New World. How are they saved?
You appear to hold to a works based salvation (perhaps you're a Roman Catholic or Mormon?)
No, but I think that Jesus told all those parable and did all those things for a reason. Why did Jesus say that a camel has a better chance getting through the eye of a needle than a rich man going to Heaven? Why did Jesus heal the sick? Why did Jesus say to do unto others as you would have others to do unto you? Why did Jesus preach to turn the other cheek? Jesus was the example.
But it still comes down to what he meant when he said salvation was through him. If it means that you have to have had a belief in Jesus while you were still alive, then millions who didn't know about Jesus are doomed. But if it means that, assuming Christianity is right, after death you believe in the presence of Jesus regardless of what you believed in life, then I can agree to that.
But I would still be hardpressed to agree with eternal damnation, though I could see a reason for it in certain situations.
And just in case you may be thinking the same, I'm sure that there are Christians that would call me water-downed. That's fine with me. I may be imperfect and I may be wrong but if God gave me a conscious to help me to understand right or wrong, then my conscious tells me that eternal damnation is wrong; that it is better to forgive someone when they know that they've done wrong than to continue punishing them.

It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by iano, posted 10-17-2009 5:49 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-18-2009 7:49 AM Izanagi has not replied
 Message 29 by iano, posted 10-18-2009 9:34 AM Izanagi has not replied

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 63 of 410 (531581)
10-18-2009 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by DevilsAdvocate
10-18-2009 9:57 PM


Re: Justification By Circular Definition?
Either way someone who advocates divine morality attempts to argue, both are refuted through sound logic.
The Dilemma is difficult to reconcile. The bigger problem is that no matter what, morality becomes subjective.
We could argue that enslaving people who are seen as members within your society is wrong because it doesn't promote the common good and cause internal strife. But what about slavery of people outside your society? Is enslaving someone who is a stranger to your society wrong and why?
How about denying illegal immigrants access to basic services? How about female circumcision? What about mistreatment of animals? What about another culture's ideas about the treatment of women? Are any of these morally wrong?
The argument leads to moral relativism and there is no authority from which to argue that something is right or wrong anywhere else except from within your own society. Things like human rights or natural rights become a non-issue on a global scale. After all, how can anyone justify telling someone else what is right or wrong based on one culture's ideas if there is no moral authority except what is derived from man.
The argument for moral authority from God does simplify matters in that people can argue that a higher power makes the rules, like how the American Government is the lawmaker in American society and determines what is legal and what is not. Even the Dilemma is weakened if we can argue that God, being wise and all-knowing, knows what is better for humanity in the long run. Thus, even if we can't see it, God may have good reasons to say that murder is immoral just by virtue of knowing what would happen if murder wasn't immoral. The argument then becomes, "Whose God(s) is right?"
You know, God would make it a lot easier if God just one day spelled out a message in the stars telling everyone if God exists or not.

It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-18-2009 9:57 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 84 of 410 (531919)
10-20-2009 1:36 PM


Furthermore, what a hypocrite the Biblical God is for demanding people to worship him. This is the ultimate apex of pride. It is called vanity. How do you expect people not to be prideful when you demand people worship you. That is the most vain and prideful act I can think of.
I think the wisdom of Homer applies in this case:
quote:
...it's because God is powerful, but also insecure, like Barbara Streisand before James Brolin. Oh, he's been a rock.
That is the only recourse they have - turning to God. Exposure to the size of the wall is intended to dissuade them from a futile attempt at climing the wall.
But then why do people, many of them Christians, say that "God helps those who help themselves" if what God really wants us to ask for help?
A more simplistic answer to your question would be that God is not one-dimensional benevolence. God is, it appears, as much wrath against sin as anything else. Given that, how is God-is-wrath to find satisfaction if God-is-benevolent snatches the object of Gods wrath away?
But doesn't this make God contradictory? God will always love what God loves and God will always be angry at what God is angry at but if God believes in forgiveness, then why must God always be angry at those people in hell and why can't God forgive those who repent in hell? More to the point, why does hell have to be eternal?
And if God can stay angry at someone for an eternity, can I stay angry at someone until I die?

It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 127 of 410 (532556)
10-23-2009 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by iano
10-23-2009 1:55 PM


Re: You do it to yourself you do - and that's what really hurts
Also, whilst a person might consider having done wrong at or after the point of having done wrong, they frequently don't continue feeling the effects of wrongdoing. Time passes and the pain of guilt and shame diminishes - but the wrongdoing stays a wrongdoing. There is a central figure in event person who can accomplish the trick of dispensing with the price for the wrong done. And that person is the offender.
I would like to go back to morality and how that relates to Heaven and Hell, specifically, moral relativism.
In different cultures around the world, there are certain practices that may seem wrong to one culture but are acceptable and maybe even considered right in others. Take the issue of female genital mutilation. There are tribes in Africa that consider this an acceptable practice. Does what they do go against the moral judgment of God? Why are so many of these procedures performed (2 million a year) if it is considered wrong by people of the Abrahamic faiths. Wouldn't this God imposed morality prevent such a widespread immoral act? And would those people who allowed the procedure and did the procedure be able to go to Heaven since it's likely they wouldn't feel remores over what they did or allowed to happen?

It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by iano, posted 10-23-2009 1:55 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by iano, posted 10-24-2009 3:52 AM Izanagi has not replied
 Message 136 by Coragyps, posted 10-24-2009 12:53 PM Izanagi has replied

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 142 of 410 (532610)
10-24-2009 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Coragyps
10-24-2009 12:53 PM


Re: You do it to yourself you do - and that's what really hurts
And there's an old tribe from Palestine that considers male infant genital mutilation not only acceptable but a requirement for membership. Culture is a funny thing, innit?
Really? I didn't know that. Which tribe was this and is it still in practice?

It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Coragyps, posted 10-24-2009 12:53 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Michamus, posted 10-24-2009 8:44 PM Izanagi has replied

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 144 of 410 (532613)
10-24-2009 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Michamus
10-24-2009 8:44 PM


Re: You do it to yourself you do - and that's what really hurts
I'd imagine you are being sarcastic, but he is referring to circumcision. (You know, the thing that is commanded in the bible, that involves the surgical removal of the male foreskin)
I thought he was referring to something else.
My information on the matter is that female genital mutilation is far more traumatic than circumcision.
Male circumcisions are apparently a more common process in the US than one might imagine. Certainly, I don't know of any males that have suffered from it later on in life.
Female genital mutilation is the total removal of the external female genitalia, a process, I imagine, to have far more long-term consequences. Which is why female circumcision doesn't adequately describe the horror that a little girl goes through during the process and what she suffers from later on in her life.
And so I thought he was talking about something similar on scale to female genital mutilation.
ABE: From the WHO website, female genital mutilation "can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later, potential childbirth complications and newborn deaths."
quote:
Long-term consequences can include:
* recurrent bladder and urinary tract infections;
* cysts;
* infertility;
* the need for later surgeries. For example, the FGM procedure that seals or narrows a vaginal opening (type 3 above) is surgically changed to allow for sexual intercourse and childbirth, and sometimes stitched close again afterwards;
* an increased risk of childbirth complications and newborn deaths.
Contrast that to the MAYO Clinic website for the cons of male circumcision:
quote:
Circumcision also has drawbacks, including:
* Surgical risks. Excessive bleeding and infection are uncommon, but possible. The foreskin may be cut too short or too long or fail to heal properly. If the remaining foreskin reattaches to the end of the penis, minor surgery may be needed to correct it.
* Pain. Circumcision hurts. Local anesthesia can block nerve sensations during the procedure.
Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.
Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.
Edited by Izanagi, : changed eternal to external

It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Michamus, posted 10-24-2009 8:44 PM Michamus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by lyx2no, posted 10-24-2009 9:49 PM Izanagi has not replied
 Message 146 by Michamus, posted 10-25-2009 7:16 AM Izanagi has not replied

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 152 of 410 (532653)
10-25-2009 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by DevilsAdvocate
10-25-2009 8:26 AM


Re: Christian Myth
I can buy into this theory Peg. However, it flies into the face of a large segment of Christiandom and the Bible they believe in.
Take a look at this PEW survey.
What's interesting is that belief in hell is not as widespread in the US as one might think. Only 59% believe in hell in the US. Even more interesting is that in this survey, or another one, a majority of American Christians believe there are many paths to salvation and that their religion may not be the one true path.
This trend may have something to do with the increasingly diverse US population. As more and more Christians become neighbors with decent non-Christian people, it becomes clear to Christians that hell, or some sort of eternal punishment for non-believers seems counter-intuitive with a benevolent God.
So all we need to do is do a bit more diversifying in the more homogeneous areas of the country and belief in hell may become a belief for a minority of Christians.

It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-25-2009 8:26 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-26-2009 5:18 AM Izanagi has not replied

  
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