Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8936 total)
25 online now:
DrJones*, GDR, PaulK (3 members, 22 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: ssope
Upcoming Birthdays: AdminPhat
Post Volume: Total: 861,616 Year: 16,652/19,786 Month: 777/2,598 Week: 23/251 Day: 0/23 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Psychology Behind the Belief in Heaven and Hell
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 391 of 410 (537581)
11-29-2009 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by DevilsAdvocate
11-29-2009 8:29 AM


Re: Moral Cognitive Dissonance
EAM writes:
Well, this has nothing to do with the argument I made. You have now turned the main point from whether

God has any situation, where one may lie and it not be a sin, to my weaknesses. One really has nothing to

do with the other

This is not off subject but is really relevant to the subject at hand. My point is that even though you

know that lying is a sin, an infraction against your God, you would knowingly violate it premeditatively

before hand because of some other standard. That is my point. My question is WHY would you do

so.

because I would not want to see anyone die, that did not deserve death. But in that process I would not

lose my objectivity and delude myself into believing that Gods command was NOW somehow acceptable

along with my actions. When yopu start doing this, then any action becomes justifiable in our own

minds. I MIGHT do it due to a immediate reation, I might do it because I know God would not view my

entire life in that one instance. I might do it because my emotions took over at that moment and here I

dont mean to imply I wasnt in control. In it all the LYING does NOT become a MORALLY CORRECT THING,

because I or the situation dictate it as such

Yes I understand what you are saying but you are not listening to what I am saying. My issue is not

whether or not she would be punished it is why would lying to protect another human beings life be

considered wrong at all. That is my source of contention.

You wont take NO for an answer will you. It is wrong from a Biblical perspective because God has

designated as such AND AND AND he provides no addendums to that edict. if such things exist, atleast

in the scriptures, then simply set it out.

I know you dont believe it but there are PRINCIPLES in existence, that are even more important than life

itself. To save your childs life you would give up your life. the PRINCIPLE of LOVE and giving up YOUR

LIFE, is more important than YOUR LIFE itself.

You said you believe in capital punishment in some instances. Therefore, you must believe there is a

PRINCIPLE in existence that superceeds the life of the person, being put to death. Your Arch Nemesis,

has nailed you here.

Gods commands and principles often, not always, outweigh, even the reality of physical life itself and

the keeping or sustaining of that physical life

Therefore my conclusion is that lying is morally wrong to protect a life, because Gods commands

superceed life itself. However, as I have said many times, God is not unsympathetic to situations and our

ignorance. he has and does overlook our ignorance in disobedience to his commands. This is also

another of his PRINCIPLES, but it does not mean lying is not a sin. This is not to say the sin will go

unpunished, Christ has paid that, but it is stated simply to say that he has more than one or two virtues

or principles.

"every idol thought and word will brought into judgement"

Yet if one hypothetically never sinned at all except to lie to protect the life of another human being

from harm or death, that person would be doomed for eternity in hell because of this one charitable

action. That is the point I am making. Why would this action be considered wrong i.e. a sin at all.

true, but you would have to disregard everything else the scriptures has to say about God and what has been said in this connection, by myself

Of all the confiscated and ridiculous stories I have heard in my life, this one takes the cake. In essence you are saying that we should be happy that someone was murdered in our place, in essence he murdered someone else (or himself however you want to view it) to satisfy himself, and we should all join you in heaven for never ending worship this unforgiving brutal dictator for eternity while the rest of humanity is being tortured FOR ETERNITY IN A BURNING LAKE OF FIRE.

I am sorry but I will opt out of this delusional escapade. Have fun while we burn. Maybe I should make that into a t-shirt.

My mistake I thought we were speaking from a Biblical perspective about the Biblical God and his actions from the same source. if your contention is from outside that source, I cant help you, you will and can imagine anything you wish.

By all means "OPT AWAY"

See ya.

EAM

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-29-2009 8:29 AM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by onifre, posted 11-29-2009 1:47 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1205 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 392 of 410 (537587)
11-29-2009 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Dawn Bertot
11-29-2009 1:00 PM


Re: Moral Cognitive Dissonance
DA writes:

That is my point. My question is WHY would you do so.

EMA writes:

because I would not want to see anyone die, that did not deserve death. But in that process I would not lose my objectivity and delude myself into believing that Gods command was NOW somehow acceptable along with my actions. When yopu start doing this, then any action becomes justifiable in our own minds. I MIGHT do it due to a immediate reation, I might do it because I know God would not view my entire life in that one instance. I might do it because my emotions took over at that moment and here I dont mean to imply I wasnt in control. In it all the LYING does NOT become a MORALLY CORRECT THING, because I or the situation dictate it as such.

In one single paragraph, you prove exactly what I was arguing for: everything is deterministic.

Even though you knew it was a sin, there were determining factors that already layed out the path for you.

And I notice you even tried to sneak in that you're not implying that you weren't in control (I dont mean to imply I wasnt in control) because you knew your entire paragraph was implying just that.

It is wrong from a Biblical perspective because God has designated as such AND AND AND he provides no addendums to that edict.

This is where I'm confused, and I'll admit I lack the education in biblical studies to know enough.

I thought Jesus was the "addendum" that cleared all sins, both past and future? I thought that made lying (or the breaking of any other commandment) not really a sin but more of a thing we had to check ourselves on.

Just believe in and follow Jesus and all is good, right?

Some people on this site say that those commandments and the old laws were specfically the Hebrews, and, specifically for those times. They also say that Jesus wiped the slate clean, and that from then on, you simply had to believe in Jesus and the old laws were not relevant anymore.

Not that you didn't have to follow them, but that by simply following in the footsteps of Jesus you were already behaving as well as possible, making no need for the old laws.

Is that correct? Where have I misunderstood?

However, as I have said many times, God is not unsympathetic to situations and our ignorance. he has and does overlook our ignorance in disobedience to his commands.

Where in the Bible does it show this side of God?

Please provide verse/quote.

My mistake I thought we were speaking from a Biblical perspective

It seems like you think he is speaking about YOUR interpretation of the Bible.

Many Christians here do not agree with you, yet they claim the same religion as you. So clearly, there is more than one way to read this book. You happen to agree with your interpretation of it, wow, what a coincidence.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-29-2009 1:00 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-29-2009 2:30 PM onifre has responded
 Message 394 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-29-2009 2:41 PM onifre has responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 393 of 410 (537593)
11-29-2009 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by onifre
11-29-2009 1:47 PM


Re: Moral Cognitive Dissonance
I thought Jesus was the "addendum" that cleared all sins, both past and future? I thought that made lying (or the breaking of any other commandment) not really a sin but more of a thing we had to check ourselves on.

Ill try this one more time. jesus is not an addendum to make a sin, not a sin, he has overlooked the sin through Christs action. It does NOT make the sin NOT REALLY a sin, as you suggest

Jesus does not CLEAR all sins without a response from man through belief, repentance and baptism, into his body. Its not unconditional.

Where in the Bible does it show this side of God?

Please provide verse/quote.

Quote

Ephesians 2:1-3 "and you hath he quickened, who were dead in tresspasses and sins, wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience, among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

See he doesnt say its not sin only that he has through his patience provided away out
EAM

EAM

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by onifre, posted 11-29-2009 1:47 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by onifre, posted 11-29-2009 2:48 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 399 by onifre, posted 11-29-2009 3:08 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 394 of 410 (537595)
11-29-2009 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by onifre
11-29-2009 1:47 PM


Re: Moral Cognitive Dissonance
Many Christians here do not agree with you, yet they claim the same religion as you. So clearly, there is more than one way to read this book. You happen to agree with your interpretation of it, wow, what a coincidence.

Who are they and let them present thier argument

In one single paragraph, you prove exactly what I was arguing for: everything is deterministic.

Even though you knew it was a sin, there were determining factors that already layed out the path for you.

And I notice you even tried to sneak in that you're not implying that you weren't in control (I dont mean to imply I wasnt in control) because you knew your entire paragraph was implying just that.

This is nonsense and I have already demonstrated why in our previous discussion. Perhaps you have already forgotten why

EAM

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by onifre, posted 11-29-2009 1:47 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by onifre, posted 11-29-2009 3:00 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1205 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 395 of 410 (537597)
11-29-2009 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by Dawn Bertot
11-29-2009 2:30 PM


Re: Moral Cognitive Dissonance
Jesus does not CLEAR all sins without a response from man through belief, repentance and baptism, into his body. Its not unconditional.

Right, like I said, believing in him and following him clears us of all sin.

The quote I provided said it clearly:

quote:
. . . but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until his enemies be made a footstool for his feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (NASB) Hebrews 10:12-14

What am I misunderstanding?

Oni writes:

Many Christians here do not agree with you, yet they claim the same religion as you. So clearly, there is more than one way to read this book. You happen to agree with your interpretation of it, wow, what a coincidence.

EMA writes:

Who are they and let them present thier argument

Who cares who they are, they exist and so there are more ways to interpret the Bible.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-29-2009 2:30 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-29-2009 2:56 PM onifre has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 396 of 410 (537598)
11-29-2009 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by onifre
11-29-2009 2:48 PM


Re: Moral Cognitive Dissonance
I added it to post 393

Who cares who they are, they exist and so there are more ways to interpret the Bible.

Maybe you would like to defend thier position for them, or ill wait to see if your initial assertion has any merit at all

Oh before I forget I have one you can use in your standup, possibly. You know that recent King Kong movie and the beautiful women as the lead. Well they were thinking of have Rosie Odonald as the lead, but the figured one beast in the movie was enough. Man that funny. I know it shouldnt be but it is

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by onifre, posted 11-29-2009 2:48 PM onifre has not yet responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1205 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 397 of 410 (537599)
11-29-2009 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Dawn Bertot
11-29-2009 2:41 PM


Re: Moral Cognitive Dissonance
This is nonsense and I have already demonstrated why in our previous discussion. Perhaps you have already forgotten why

I refer you to my final final post to you were I demonstrated how you exposed the flaws in your own argument, and I have you quoted as saying its all deterministic.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-29-2009 2:41 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-29-2009 3:04 PM onifre has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 398 of 410 (537602)
11-29-2009 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by onifre
11-29-2009 3:00 PM


Re: Moral Cognitive Dissonance
i have an addition look at 396
This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by onifre, posted 11-29-2009 3:00 PM onifre has not yet responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1205 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 399 of 410 (537603)
11-29-2009 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by Dawn Bertot
11-29-2009 2:30 PM


Re: Moral Cognitive Dissonance
See he doesnt say its not sin only that he has through his patience provided away out

Ugh, right, "believing in him and following him clears us of all sin." Like I keep repeating.

quote:
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Hebrews 10:12-14

So, Jesus is the addendum that removes the burden of sin. If you lie to protect someone else, and you believe in Jesus, sure you sinned but it is null and void.

Believing in Jesus makes you able to make conscience decisions based on your own life experiences, and not be burdened by sin.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-29-2009 2:30 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2009 10:33 AM onifre has responded

    
Yogi
Junior Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 11-26-2009


Message 400 of 410 (537672)
11-30-2009 7:03 AM


Heaven or Hell ? Check yourself
Anyone in doubt might consider (apart from the Bible) the multitude of testimonies regarding the issue of eternal life (or death).

In case of after-death non-existence this discussion is irrelevant.
If it is true, however, one would not waste the precious time arguing about the details (which fit our imagination or not)
but do everything to prevent his/her soul as well as people within our reach from landing in the lake of fire.

So if you are honestly a good person do whatever you can to awake people - they would thank you forever after being saved.

Quote :
"Many people today do not care about helping other souls. They waste their time watching worldly tv, series, movies, playing video games and only searching for earthly pleasures rather than saving their own and other people’s souls. They do not spend even an hour a day on trying to save their own selves and others from the eternal hellfire."

“Other Christians accepted Hell on faith, because Christ had said repeatedly and with solemn emphasis that there is a Hell, but Jacinta had seen it; and once she grasped the idea that God’s justice is the counterpart of His mercy, and that there must be a Hell if there is to be a Heaven, nothing seemed so important to her except to save as many souls as possible from the horrors she had glimpsed under the radiant hands of the Queen of heaven. Nothing could be too hard, nothing too small or too great to give up.”
(Our Lady of Fatima, p. 89)

http://www.prophecyfilm.com

Edited by Yogi, : missed letter


Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by iano, posted 11-30-2009 7:44 AM Yogi has not yet responded
 Message 402 by Yogi, posted 11-30-2009 9:53 AM Yogi has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 195 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 401 of 410 (537675)
11-30-2009 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 400 by Yogi
11-30-2009 7:03 AM


Re: Heaven or Hell ? Check yourself
Yogi writes:

So if you are honestly a good person do whatever you can to awake people - they would thank you forever after being saved.

Funnily enough, this hasn't been my experience. The person/people that led me to Christ are considered by me/them as but tools of God. The glory has gone to God for my salvation - from both them and me. Not them.

-

quote:
"Many people today do not care about helping other souls. They waste their time watching worldly tv, series, movies, playing video games and only searching for earthly pleasures rather than saving their own and other people’s souls. They do not spend even an hour a day on trying to save their own selves and others from the eternal hellfire."

Given time spend trying to save yourself is time spent digging a hole for yourself I'm inclined to thank God for that. That said: those not working to save themselves are in the same peril as those who feverishly do so.

-

“Other Christians accepted Hell on faith, because Christ had said repeatedly and with solemn emphasis that there is a Hell, but Jacinta had seen it; and once she grasped the idea that God’s justice is the counterpart of His mercy, and that there must be a Hell if there is to be a Heaven, nothing seemed so important to her except to save as many souls as possible from the horrors she had glimpsed under the radiant hands of the Queen of heaven. Nothing could be too hard, nothing too small or too great to give up.”

(Our Lady of Fatima, p. 89)

Yet the effects of "Our Ladys" intercession is:

- rightful mockery from one quarter: given the wisdom of ignoring wild sounding claims. Like, if you believed Jacinta, you'd have to believe anyone who claimed anything.

- folks working themselves into a lather to get into Heaven

..both of which are but sides of the same satanic coin: one side for the Jew (ie: the religious unbeliever), one for the Gentile (ie the irreligiuous unbeliever)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by Yogi, posted 11-30-2009 7:03 AM Yogi has not yet responded

  
Yogi
Junior Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 11-26-2009


Message 402 of 410 (537689)
11-30-2009 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 400 by Yogi
11-30-2009 7:03 AM


Re: Heaven or Hell ? Check yourself
1. If we were not grateful to other people - only to God allowing for such good circumstances to be met by us - than we should not thank our parents for their effort.
We are grateful to other people for being God`s tools, aren`t we ?

2. Preparing to Christ return is a Christian task given in the Scriptures.
However some think it is enough to just accept Jesus Christ verbally and nothing else is necessary to their salvation.

"2 The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a certain king, which made a marriage feast for his son ... "
"11 But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding-garment:
12 and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding-garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few chosen."
Matthew 22

3. Testimonies and visions of heaven / hell are multiple.
We could analyse them, compare , find what pattern is repeating in them. That`s not the issue here. Certainly you are acquainted with some of them, e.g. :
http://testimony-polo.blogspot.com/
http://spiritlessons.com/
http://www.divinerevelations.info/...r_Death_Experiences.htm

Descriptions of experiences of the previous centuries visionaries match contemporary testimonies.

Edited by Yogi, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by Yogi, posted 11-30-2009 7:03 AM Yogi has not yet responded

    
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 829 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 403 of 410 (538588)
12-08-2009 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate
10-15-2009 5:54 PM


I think that boils down to a single question, that is,

What happens after physical death, does soul exist?

Now amongst all human knowledge including science and religions, who ever addressed this question and delivered an answer to this question directly?

I think that only 'thing' ever addressed this question directly is Christianity, with salvation through the atonement of sins as a solution.

God has strict Laws, and if judged by Law we are the dead prisoners. The solution is God as qualified for such a job, atoned for our sins such that we don't need to face the judgment by Law.

Science is almost futile about 'what will happen after death'. Other religions don't seem to be able to address it directly. It seems to me that only the Christian God cares so much about what humans will be by sending out warnings, giving out laws and covenant, providing a feasible solution for human soul salvation and etc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-15-2009 5:54 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 829 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 404 of 410 (538590)
12-08-2009 5:14 AM


hell is a place where God is absent. people in hell are said to be in a permanent separation from God.

When angels are in such a separation, they become devils or satans. I think that's why they are thrown to the lake of fire.

When humans are in such a separation, will they be worse?

I think that hell may not be reasoned that easily perhaps we miss out something, say, because we don't know what will happen in a permanent separation from God.

And I think that if people sinned and yet deny God's offer as a solution, which simply means "people didn't choose God, and God didn't choose them in earth stage". That's why the separation.


Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by Iblis, posted 12-10-2009 11:24 AM Hawkins has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 195 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 405 of 410 (538814)
12-10-2009 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 399 by onifre
11-29-2009 3:08 PM


Re: Moral Cognitive Dissonance
So, Jesus is the addendum that removes the burden of sin. If you lie to protect someone else, and you believe in Jesus, sure you sinned but it is null and void.

The cynical case you seem to be making is that salvation in Christ is kind of "cheap". The saved can "get away" with a lot.

It implies that this "free" forgiveness allows the sinner to get off with a lot of things as if God is not too bright. Or may God didn't think this out too well. I mean I get a "null and void" concerning my sins, but what's to stop me from continuing to sin even more?

Well, as I read the New Testament carefully I seriously don't see how anyone is getting away with anything.

Now I won't belabor the matter unless you have a genuine interest. But consider one thing. Paul is speaking to Christians in the book of Galatians. These are saved. These are forgiven. These are redeemed and have received eternal redemption.

To such ones, he writes:

"Do not be deceived: God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption of the flesh, but he who sow unto the Spirit will of the Spirit reap eternal life." (Gal. 6:7,8)

There are many many passages in the New Testament with this tone. They are warnings to CHRISTIANS, for whom the question of eternal redemption has been settled.

What you have to realize is that God has many ways to deal with man aside from eternal punishment. It is foolish to think someone as wise as God is locked into His own system so that He cannot dispense the needed discipline to His children to perfect them.

If you were genuinely interested to look into this on more than a superfiscial level, I would suggest a book to you:

"The Judgment Seat of Christ" by D.M. Panton. Schoettle Publishers

You can take a position that "Ignorance is Bliss" and hold to a strawman argument. Or you can educate yourself to see what is the process of discipline to those for whom eternal redemption has been secured.

I think it depends on your level of interest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by onifre, posted 11-29-2009 3:08 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by onifre, posted 12-11-2009 3:36 PM jaywill has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019