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Author Topic:   The problem with creationism and god
SignGuy
Junior Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 10-14-2010


Message 82 of 109 (586606)
10-14-2010 8:56 AM


Just because an argument can be reasoned incorrect, doesnt debunk that persons point of view entirely. It could just be a bad argument, backed up by nothing.
We have spent 6 pages blasting a bad argument. I am Christian, and beleive that the argument "complex like requires God" is more an emotional description of his faith than a statement meant to defend his faith....its an easy target.
However, if the word complex is subjective than let me get specific. Im going change from "intelligent" to "efficient" design, in an attempt to make an argument without the assumption that a God created what we see.
Even if u dont beleive in God, u can admit that humans are efficiently designed, however that "design" came into existence.
Have we ever found a skeleton of some species that showed such an un-efficient design that it was doomed to go extinct immediately? For instance, other than a sudden birth defect, have we found an evoltionary path leading to, say, a land animal with its eyes and head pearing straight the the sky not being able to see where its going?
Or when brains were developed, were we just lucky that they were put in a safe place and not the last place pheices travels to before exiting the body? Or put on the bottom of our feet to be stepped on?
How about oxygen? Doesnt the need for, the existence of, and ability to consume oxygen all need to be in place simutaneosly? With a need for, and ability to, but no existence of oxygen we would perish. If there is, and have the ability to consume, but no need for oxygen....would we evolve "backwards" to get rid of that ability? And of course, we would die if oxygen existed, we needed it and we couldnt consume it.
In closing i thank evolution for never puting a mouth on any living creature in a place where that creature could not place food there on there own (ie the center of my back).

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Larni, posted 10-14-2010 9:15 AM SignGuy has not replied
 Message 85 by Panda, posted 10-14-2010 9:56 AM SignGuy has not replied

  
SignGuy
Junior Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 10-14-2010


Message 84 of 109 (586619)
10-14-2010 9:51 AM


Thank you for teaching me that oxygen was deadly as one point. But at some point, when oxygen became safe, the need and ability to obsorb would have to become existent at the same exact moment. And dont get me wrong, i dont neccessarily mean lungs being there.
My closing statement was a toungue in cheek expression to sum up my entire point for the post i made. That if evolution is true, is has done an excellejt job of being efficient as what becomes of the creatures that roam the planet, even the smallest probpems have been solved through what evoltion has produced. If i itch, i can stratch thanks to nails. If there is more than normal dust in the air, i can close my eyes.
I do beleive in the statement that started the whole topic, that life must be created in order to be complex. But i wont use that phrase in a room, as an argument, that is filled with smart people who beleive otherwise. I will elaborate and explain what i beleive in a more clear way....even if a tad sarcastic like my closing statement.
I suggest trying to pick apart the message, not the words. Neither side gets anywhere in promoting their beleifs if we spend so much time picking off the 20 layers of the word "complex" and saying gotcha! Its the equivilent of bein in a fist fight, plucking a hair and declaring victory.

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Larni, posted 10-14-2010 10:13 AM SignGuy has not replied
 Message 89 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2010 11:39 AM SignGuy has not replied
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 10-14-2010 12:04 PM SignGuy has replied

  
SignGuy
Junior Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 10-14-2010


Message 87 of 109 (586630)
10-14-2010 10:13 AM


Perhaps im new to proper debate. I was refering to visible body structures and the bone layout that could be reasonably envisioned thereof. Example, a you see a giraffe, it has long neck, therefore many similar bones probably compose that long neck.
But as i said, you can get technical all day on what im saying, but you can promote your beleifs better if you approach my message and not my words. That said i dont mind clarifying, and i hope you wouldjt mind if u used poor words either.
Also, i mentioned brains as most people know them, a ball of grey mass in my head. U avoided my message and attacked my words, wouldnt it be common sense that majority of people view a brain like i just did? Or do u want to prove a point to the few people who understand your valid reply, or promote what u beleive in a way that more than intellectual people understand why u described brains the way u did. More people will understand a common sense, plainly stated argument, than a bashing of semantics or technicalities. Isnt that why were posting.....to convince people of what we beleive?

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by SignGuy, posted 10-14-2010 11:37 AM SignGuy has not replied
 Message 90 by Panda, posted 10-14-2010 11:44 AM SignGuy has not replied

  
SignGuy
Junior Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 10-14-2010


Message 88 of 109 (586665)
10-14-2010 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by SignGuy
10-14-2010 10:13 AM


I understand, in the theory of evolution you would only see significant changes in (put right word for living things here) if you looked at what has changed after long periods of time. Only then could you see the "progress".
I promise that this will be my last post on this topic, I know Im being redundant, and probably annoying.
But, even though I understand that evolution proccess take a while. And a sudden need for oxygen did occur. The problem I tried to get you guys thinking of is, what if the need for oxygen ( or any basic neccessity....food, water, sunlight) became a neccessity in the evolutionary process but the sources for these things couldn't keep up with the demand?
The start of the whole topic was "how could life be so complex, and there not be a Creator?" and people ripped it apart....well Im asking "How could evolution be such a random, un-guided, natural process and produce the elaborate, self sustaining planet than can support intelligent life."
At every turn, it seems the theory of evolution got it right, made very few mistakes, timed needs with solutions by pure coincidence, a bird ended up with hollow bones to be light for flight, just as an elephant has thick strong bones and has a long trunk so that he doesn't have to lift its body everytime it eats a blade of grass. Its amazing that we need water to drink, and its nearly everywhere, its amazing that we need food to eat and we can hunt, find, or grow exactly what we need......how can this not be on purpose?
Im 100% sure that somebody will pick-appart "elaborate", "self-sustaining", "intelligent".....yadda yadda.....while COMPLETELY missing my point of what I was trying to make. I dont mind if you beleive of something else, I beleive in God, in-fact I wouldn't mind to "kick the EvC can" down the road with somebody who I may never convince of my beleifs, because I know I wont budge.
Sorry I was a little defensive.
Have fun, poke fun at my sarcasm in my first post if you want. Make a friend of the "oppposite side" and have an intelligent, fun conversation with somebody. But address what they are trying to say, and not get caught up in the details.....which by the way, I beleive is the only way the evolution theory lives on, because they argue against Creation theories with the scientific details. You would never be able to see the beauty of a master painting if you you looked at each brush stroke one at a time.
Furthermore, which is better? To live life the way you want to, die, and then find out God really does exist....or.....live life as if there was a God, die, and find out there is no God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by SignGuy, posted 10-14-2010 10:13 AM SignGuy has not replied

  
SignGuy
Junior Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 10-14-2010


Message 92 of 109 (586694)
10-14-2010 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
10-14-2010 12:04 PM


Certainly we can "improve" it. But we are the only creature that wears them, and for the rest of living things to not need them is efficient.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 10-14-2010 12:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 10-14-2010 1:03 PM SignGuy has replied

  
SignGuy
Junior Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 10-14-2010


Message 94 of 109 (586735)
10-14-2010 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
10-14-2010 1:03 PM


But you missed a big point that you stated yourself. what we lack in natural equipment can be made up by human technology. God gave us the ability to create things like no other creature can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 10-14-2010 1:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 10-14-2010 3:14 PM SignGuy has replied

  
SignGuy
Junior Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 10-14-2010


Message 96 of 109 (586868)
10-15-2010 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
10-14-2010 3:14 PM


humans were made in God's image we are special, unique, and some beleive have souls as which animals may not.....animals are just animals for lack of better words

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 10-14-2010 3:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by bluescat48, posted 10-15-2010 10:46 AM SignGuy has not replied
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 10-15-2010 11:18 AM SignGuy has replied
 Message 103 by barbara, posted 10-15-2010 4:40 PM SignGuy has not replied

  
SignGuy
Junior Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 10-14-2010


Message 99 of 109 (586889)
10-15-2010 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by ringo
10-15-2010 11:18 AM


even worse? really? do you think that adult racoons has the same depth of love & passion for their offspring as we do? and you would rather have the eyes of an eagle? Do animals have the level intimacy one has when they kiss as when two people attracted to one another do? and you want the speed of a cheetah?
You would rather give up your ability to create art, music, and poetry in exchange for a fur coat??
I digress on souls, cannot be proven either way.....until we pass on, somebody will be right.
reflections doesn't neccarily mean identical. If he were creating indentical beings this would be a whole different place......billions of gods on this planet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 10-15-2010 11:18 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Panda, posted 10-15-2010 12:22 PM SignGuy has not replied
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 10-15-2010 12:22 PM SignGuy has not replied
 Message 102 by frako, posted 10-15-2010 3:06 PM SignGuy has not replied
 Message 107 by Taq, posted 10-15-2010 6:06 PM SignGuy has not replied

  
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