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Author Topic:   The problem with creationism and god
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 91 of 109 (586687)
10-14-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by SignGuy
10-14-2010 9:51 AM


SignGuy writes:

If i itch, i can stratch thanks to nails. If there is more than normal dust in the air, i can close my eyes.


If the "design" is so efficient, why did we invent sunglasses? Why do we have clothes, shoes, tools? Clearly, it's pretty easy to improve on the "design".

For evolution to work, we don't need those luxury items. We only need to be able to survive long enough to reproduce.

But you'd think that an intelligent designer or creator would have enough sense to anticipate the problems we might encounter and design us a nice modular expansion interface.


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by SignGuy, posted 10-14-2010 9:51 AM SignGuy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by SignGuy, posted 10-14-2010 12:09 PM ringo has responded

  
SignGuy
Junior Member (Idle past 2990 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 10-14-2010


Message 92 of 109 (586694)
10-14-2010 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
10-14-2010 12:04 PM


Certainly we can "improve" it. But we are the only creature that wears them, and for the rest of living things to not need them is efficient.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 10-14-2010 12:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 10-14-2010 1:03 PM SignGuy has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 93 of 109 (586706)
10-14-2010 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by SignGuy
10-14-2010 12:09 PM


SignGuy writes:

Certainly we can "improve" it. But we are the only creature that wears them, and for the rest of living things to not need them is efficient.


It isn't that other living things don't need them (sunglasses, etc.); it's just that we humans are the only ones who have evolved the capacity to design them.

The point is that if we can improve on the design, it doesn't say much for the ability of the original designer.


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by SignGuy, posted 10-14-2010 12:09 PM SignGuy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by SignGuy, posted 10-14-2010 2:56 PM ringo has responded

  
SignGuy
Junior Member (Idle past 2990 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 10-14-2010


Message 94 of 109 (586735)
10-14-2010 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
10-14-2010 1:03 PM


But you missed a big point that you stated yourself. what we lack in natural equipment can be made up by human technology. God gave us the ability to create things like no other creature can.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 10-14-2010 1:03 PM ringo has responded

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 Message 95 by ringo, posted 10-14-2010 3:14 PM SignGuy has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 95 of 109 (586738)
10-14-2010 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by SignGuy
10-14-2010 2:56 PM


SignGuy writes:

what we lack in natural equipment can be made up by human technology. God gave us the ability to create things like no other creature can.


That's another strike against the idea of a designer/creator. Why would such a good feature (intelligence) be used on only one model?


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by SignGuy, posted 10-14-2010 2:56 PM SignGuy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by SignGuy, posted 10-15-2010 9:30 AM ringo has responded

  
SignGuy
Junior Member (Idle past 2990 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 10-14-2010


Message 96 of 109 (586868)
10-15-2010 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
10-14-2010 3:14 PM


humans were made in God's image we are special, unique, and some beleive have souls as which animals may not.....animals are just animals for lack of better words
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 10-14-2010 3:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by bluescat48, posted 10-15-2010 10:46 AM SignGuy has not yet responded
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 10-15-2010 11:18 AM SignGuy has responded
 Message 103 by barbara, posted 10-15-2010 4:40 PM SignGuy has not yet responded

    
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2267 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 97 of 109 (586874)
10-15-2010 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by SignGuy
10-15-2010 9:30 AM


image?
humans were made in God's image we are special, unique, and some beleive have souls as which animals may not.....animals are just animals for lack of better words

That is nothing but a religious belief based on nothing but the ideas of some bronze aged farmer or hunter. There is no evidence that that is so. Actually god is made in the image of the person who believes in him/her/it.

Edited by bluescat48, : part of the post did not show


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 98 of 109 (586884)
10-15-2010 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by SignGuy
10-15-2010 9:30 AM


SignGuy writes:

humans were made in God's image we are special, unique, and some beleive have souls as which animals may not.....animals are just animals for lack of better words


Even worse. Why would a designer give better features - e. g. better eyesight - to the "lesser" designs than he gave to us? And how do weaker eyesight, poorer sense of smell, etc. reflect on "his own image"?


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by SignGuy, posted 10-15-2010 9:30 AM SignGuy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by SignGuy, posted 10-15-2010 11:52 AM ringo has responded

  
SignGuy
Junior Member (Idle past 2990 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 10-14-2010


Message 99 of 109 (586889)
10-15-2010 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by ringo
10-15-2010 11:18 AM


even worse? really? do you think that adult racoons has the same depth of love & passion for their offspring as we do? and you would rather have the eyes of an eagle? Do animals have the level intimacy one has when they kiss as when two people attracted to one another do? and you want the speed of a cheetah?

You would rather give up your ability to create art, music, and poetry in exchange for a fur coat??

I digress on souls, cannot be proven either way.....until we pass on, somebody will be right.

reflections doesn't neccarily mean identical. If he were creating indentical beings this would be a whole different place......billions of gods on this planet.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Panda, posted 10-15-2010 12:22 PM SignGuy has not yet responded
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 10-15-2010 12:22 PM SignGuy has not yet responded
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Panda
Member (Idle past 1790 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 100 of 109 (586896)
10-15-2010 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by SignGuy
10-15-2010 11:52 AM


SignGuy writes:

You would rather give up your ability to create art, music, and poetry in exchange for a fur coat??


Is 'being furry' and 'being artistic' mutually exclusive?
How do you explain ZZ-Top then!

hmm...I might have just lost my own argument.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by SignGuy, posted 10-15-2010 11:52 AM SignGuy has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 101 of 109 (586897)
10-15-2010 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by SignGuy
10-15-2010 11:52 AM


SignGuy writes:

Do animals have the level intimacy one has when they kiss as when two people attracted to one another do?


I just watched a documentary on elephants last night. Apparently, their capacity for intimacy rivals or even surpasses our own.

SignGuy writes:

You would rather give up your ability to create art, music, and poetry in exchange for a fur coat?


Why do I have to give up one for the other? You might as well ask if I'd rather have a car with a stereo or one with wheels. Why couldn't a good designer provide both?


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by SignGuy, posted 10-15-2010 11:52 AM SignGuy has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 102 of 109 (586925)
10-15-2010 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by SignGuy
10-15-2010 11:52 AM


You would rather give up your ability to create art, music, and poetry in exchange for a fur coat??

Well birds make better music than humans. Apes can draw pretty well. As for pottery I doubt it would be too hard to teach an ape to make a bowl from clay.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : I thank Frako for getting in touch with his "shift" key. I just changed an "i" to an "I" to complete the process.


This message is a reply to:
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barbara
Member (Idle past 2879 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 103 of 109 (586944)
10-15-2010 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by SignGuy
10-15-2010 9:30 AM


It is that comment right there that makes me sick
The comment made that humans are created in God's image and are therefore special and above all other creatures. It is this attitude that is causing all of the beautiful creatures to be on the extinction list.

I would rather live among other creatures than my fellow humans given the choice. I see many humans as the most dangerous, uncaring creature on the planet and I am ashamed that I am a member of them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by SignGuy, posted 10-15-2010 9:30 AM SignGuy has not yet responded

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 Message 104 by dwise1, posted 10-15-2010 5:06 PM barbara has not yet responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3309
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 104 of 109 (586950)
10-15-2010 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by barbara
10-15-2010 4:40 PM


Re: It is that comment right there that makes me sick
The comment made that humans are created in God's image and are therefore special and above all other creatures. It is this attitude that is causing all of the beautiful creatures to be on the extinction list.

I would rather live among other creatures than my fellow humans given the choice. I see many humans as the most dangerous, uncaring creature on the planet and I am ashamed that I am a member of them.

During those long decades leading up to the Civil War, both sides, pro- and anti-slavery alike, would quote the Bible to support their own position, and successfully so. Likewise, while the despoilers of our planet would quote the Bible to justify their actions (and might bolster that with the firmly held belief that that despoiling is all a part of leading up to the End Times), others have also quoted the Bible to justify their belief in our role as stewards of this planet and as such we must try to preserve and protect it and all its inhabitants.

That's the thing about the Bible. It seems that just about no matter what position you want to support, you can find something in the Bible to support it. Also seems to hold for all those mutually contradictory theologies out there. So instead of trying to justify their positions with the Bible, why don't they just honestly state their positions and the real reasons for those positions?

BTW, I think you might appreciate a late Mark Twain work, The Damned Human Race, which back in 1969 I found included in a paperback along with his Letters From the Earth (which was also the title of the paperback). Just offered as a Geschenk.

Edited by dwise1, : title of the paperback


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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 105 of 109 (586951)
10-15-2010 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by dwise1
10-15-2010 5:06 PM


Re: It is that comment right there that makes me sick
BTW, I think you might appreciate a late Mark Twain work, The Damned Human Race, which back in 1969 I found included in a paperback along with his Letters From the Earth (which was also the title of the paperback). Just offered as a Geschenk.

Also The Mysterious Stranger.

Those three were required reading in Sacred Studies when I was in school.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
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