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Author | Topic: Squaring circles: direct biblical contradictions | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Blzebub  Suspended Member (Idle past 5494 days) Posts: 129 Joined: |
The rationale for justifying any of my beliefs stems from an overarching belief that the Bible is the word of God. Once I've accepted that, there isn't much need to justify any specific belief arising from that overarching acceptance: God says it's so - who am I to argue with God? This statement sums up the feelings of many christians about the bible. It's the word of god, and cannot be disputed. That's all very well, but the question is: which parts of it are "the word of god"? The reason why I ask is that there are many parts of the bible which directly contradict one another, and there is some extremely strange (and sometimes downright dangerous) advice in there, if you examine the whole document. Here's a few, for a kick-off: 1. It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil:
Genesis 2:15-17 (King James Version) And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil:
Hebrews 5:13-14 (King James Version) For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. 2. While he is drunk, Lot's two daughters "lie with him," become pregnant, and give birth to his offspring:
Genesis 19:30-38 (King James Version) And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day. Lot was "just". [So much for the bible as a moral compass!] 2 Peter 2:7 (King James Version) And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 3.God tempts Abraham:
Genesis 22:1-12 (King James Version) Genesis 22 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. God never tempts anyone:
James 1:13 (King James Version) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 4. Honour your father and mother:
Exodus 20:12 (King James Version) Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Jesus says that he has come to divide families; that a man's foes will be those of his own household; that you must hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and even your own life to be a disciple:
Matthew 10:35-37 (King James Version) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Luke 12:51-53 (King James Version) Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luke 14:26 (King James Version) If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 5. God prohibits killing:
Exodus 20:13 (King James Version) Thou shalt not kill. God orders killing:
Exodus 32:27 (King James Version) And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. Deuteronomy 7:2 (King James Version) And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: 6. Take revenge on your enemies:
Deuteronomy 19:21 (King James Version) And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Or perhaps not:
Matthew 5:38-44 (King James Version) Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 7. Sisera was sleeping when Jael killed him:
Judges 4:21 (King James Version) Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died. Sisera was standing:
Judges 5:25-27 (King James Version) He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish. She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples. At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at her feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead. There are hundreds more. This doesn't even begin to address inconsistencies across different versions of the bible...
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Blzebub  Suspended Member (Idle past 5494 days) Posts: 129 Joined: |
I don't understand what you want me to do.
Christians say that the word of god, as written in the bible, is indisputable. I've presented several biblical instances where this is clearly not the case, because the bible gives conflicting advice, and I'm asking how do christians reconcile these. "It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil" is not consistent with "it is immature to be unable to tell good from evil" Lot is described as a "just" man, despite the fact that he impregnated his daughters. The bible says God never tempts any man. God tempts Abraham. Honour your father and mother is one of the 10 commandments; Jesus says that he has come to divide families; that a man's foes will be those of his own household; that you must hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and even your own life to be a disciple. God prohibits killing, but later god orders killing. Does the bible advise taking revenge, or not? Sisera was sleeping when Jael killed him. Sisera was standing.
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Blzebub  Suspended Member (Idle past 5494 days) Posts: 129 Joined: |
all I see is a thread to make Christians jump through hoops to reconcile inconsistencies Huh? My point is that the bible directly contradicts itself, and does so innumerable times. It does so in many different ways. Conflicting advice is given. Even simple stuff such as the Jael murder story has two different scenarios. Even one such instance is not consistent with the christian concept of a "perfect" god. So, either the bible isn't actually the word of god, as is rather likely, or this god speaks with a forked tongue.
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Blzebub  Suspended Member (Idle past 5494 days) Posts: 129 Joined:
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While I work on addressing the inconsistencies you provided, please provide evidence for the Christian concept of a "perfect" God and what is meant by perfect in relation to God. http://www.theism.info/perfection.html
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Blzebub  Suspended Member (Idle past 5494 days) Posts: 129 Joined: |
I see poor cherry picking, but I don't really see true contradictions. First of all (in post 7) you agree that they are "inconsistencies", and ask me why the bible shouldn't contain any (I would have thought that the reason would be obvious, if one accepts the bible as the word of a perfect deity); but now you are saying they aren't "contradictions", after all! You seem to be reading the bible in a decidedly non-literal way! Isn't it a guide for the man in the street? How about the "sabbath"? Guidance from the bible:
Exodus 31:15-17 (King James Version) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. Mark 2:27-28 (King James Version) And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. Romans 14:5 (King James Version) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. First, no work is to be done on the Sabbath, not even lighting a fire. The commandment is permanent, and death is required for infractions. Later on, Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (after his disciples were criticized for breaking the Sabbath). Paul also chimes in with the insight that the Sabbath commandment was temporary, and to decide for yourself regarding its observance.
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Blzebub  Suspended Member (Idle past 5494 days) Posts: 129 Joined: |
I also didn't ask you why the Bible shouldn't contain inconsistencies, I asked for you to provide evidence that the Bible cannot contain inconsistencies to be considered the "word of God". In Message 9, you provided a link that supports that some Christians consider God to be perfect, but you didn't tell me what perfect means in relation to God. Who says the Bible cannot contain inconsistencies and be considered the "word of God" besides you? If you follow the link, you will see what is meant by perfection in relation to god. It's clearly not a perfect situation if god's word is left open to interpretation by different readers. Is it your opinion that god isn't perfect?
Religion changes with civilization. True. It picks and chooses among the innumerable and diverse advice presented in the bible. Some advice is discarded. How does religion know which parts of the word of god are no longer relevent? The bible says nothing to outlaw torture, giving the catholics carte blanche to go ahead with the inquisition, but nowadays few churchmen would condone it. Why didn't god prohibit torture, preferring to concentrate on various weird dietary restrictions instead!?
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Blzebub  Suspended Member (Idle past 5494 days) Posts: 129 Joined: |
Rule #5: Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references. I don't debate links. When you say perfect god, what do you mean by perfect in relation to God? Wow, you are being very strict with me. Since I believe there is almost certainly no god, I have no "personal" interpretation of the word "perfect" in this context. It would be like trying to describe a perfect Peter Pan. I take the word at its face value. Perfection is a state of flawlessness. That's why I posted the link to a theist website, which you are refusing to discuss, for some reason.
What do you think "word of God" means? What it says, of course. Words originating from god. They should be flawless and indisputable if god is perfect. Why does everything seem like a conundrum in your version of christianity? Is the bible supposed to be a plain-speaking guide for ordinary christians ("thou shalt not kill", etc.) or is its true meaning only accessible to advanced bible scholars?
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Blzebub  Suspended Member (Idle past 5494 days) Posts: 129 Joined: |
According to you they must be flawless (without fault or blemish) and unquestionable if God is flawless. The adjective "perfect" describes God, not necessarily what he says or does or inspires. If you look back to the quote I posted to kick off this thread:
The rationale for justifying any of my beliefs stems from an overarching belief that the Bible is the word of God. Once I've accepted that, there isn't much need to justify any specific belief arising from that overarching acceptance: God says it's so - who am I to argue with God? This says unequivocally that "god says it's so" via god's word in the bible. It was written in another thread by another christian. I took him at his word (i.e. I believe that what he wrote was true and sincere, in case you are wondering what I mean by that). It appears that your understanding of "the word of god" is at variance with mine and his.
Why should the writings in the Bible be unquestionable because God is supposedly flawless? How does one relate to the other? If they were questionable, then their originator couldn't ever be considered "perfect".
God is always changing as the Bible shows us. Well, this is a new theology. No other christian I have had any dealings with has thought that god is "always changing". Are you certain about this? Which christian sect believes that god is changing? Your god is, however, always changing - his story.
So, do you still consider the verses you provided to be inconsistent? You didn't really respond to my explanations. Yes, they are obviously inconsistent if you read the plain text, and I thought your explanations were extremely convoluted, and unconvincing because of that. Edited by Blzebub, : No reason given.
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Blzebub  Suspended Member (Idle past 5494 days) Posts: 129 Joined: |
The point of the A&E story in Genesis 2:15-17 has nothing to do with whether it is wrong to be able to tell good from evil. It is a foundational myth written as a just-so story to explain why mankind is the way it is. This story does not contradict what the author of Hebrews said in 5:13-14. So, this one is dismissed as a "myth".
The author of 2 Peter is referring to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, not what happened afterwards. In Genesis 19, Lot was saved because he was considered righteous before the destruction. Whoever thought he was "righteous" before, was proved wrong soon after.
Do you really think Genesis 22 and James 1 are talking about the same thing? God gave Abraham a command. The test of Abraham was if he followed God's command. A direct test of obedience. The author of James is talking about temptation (enticement) to do things that are wrong, not that God gave them a direct order. I think killing children is wrong. Don't you? God asked Abraham to kill his son. God comes across as a particularly nasty and sadistic psychopath in this jolly little tale.
Again, this is not a contradiction of the law, but a sign of the times. Come off it. Honestly, this is ridiculous.
Judges is considered an historical book. Judges 4:21 is telling what happened. Judges 5:25-27 is a song about the incident. Songs tend to take poetic license Poetic license? You'll be saying it's all made up by primitive Bronze-Age people, next.
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Blzebub  Suspended Member (Idle past 5494 days) Posts: 129 Joined:
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You show me evidence that one is a "myth", and another is a "song". Where's the music?
The later example (sabbath commandment) makes it quite clear that the order is permanent, but it is subsequently countermanded by Jesus and Paul. If you truly, honestly don't agree that my examples were inconsistencies, why did you refer to them as such in your first reply?
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Blzebub  Suspended Member (Idle past 5494 days) Posts: 129 Joined:
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He said nothing about God being perfect or that God's word can't be questioned. You seem to be conflating perfect God with word of God. He said "who am I to argue with god?" The clear implication is that god's word can't be questioned. Anyway, he has arrived in the thread now, so perhaps he can explain for himself what he means.
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Blzebub  Suspended Member (Idle past 5494 days) Posts: 129 Joined:
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That's what I thought. You found a list of Bible contradictions, but you really don't have any reasoning of your own to sustain your position. You're demanding more evidence, when you haven't even provided counter evidence. So far you haven't shown evidence that the Christian Bible must be free of contradictions and errors to be considered the word of God. I think you are playing fast and loose with words. Philosophical theism commonly ascribes to god the attribute of immutable - the idea that god cannot and does not change. Whatever god is like now is the way that god was for all of the past and the way god will be for all of the future. It doesn’t matter what happens elsewhere, god always and inevitably remains the same. But you claim that god changes with time. The only reason why you claim this, is to try to paper over the cracks in the bible.
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Blzebub  Suspended Member (Idle past 5494 days) Posts: 129 Joined: |
In this case God is the killer and man the weapon of Gods choice. This would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. Your god uses men to do its dirty work on its behalf? Are you serious? What about the physical and psychological damage to all the people concerned, including their families and loved ones? Does your god not care too much about that? I thought the christian god was supposed to be "a god of love and peace".....
2 Corinthians 13:11 (King James Version) Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. Quite how you can "worship" such an uncaring and inconsistent entity is way beyond me.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic
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Blzebub  Suspended Member (Idle past 5494 days) Posts: 129 Joined: |
Show evidence that God/Religion does not, cannot, and has not changed. Remember, you're in the science thread; not faith and belief. There's no evidence god even exists, so how can anyone "show evidence" about whether god has changed? I've already shown that "immutability" is a common theme in christianity, and it's what I was taught as a young child, before I grew old enough to see through it all.
Show evidence that Jesus countered the command not to work on the Sabbath, as opposed to teaching people to address the spirit of the law with common sense. The command was unequivocal, punishable by death, and states explicitly that it is "a perpetual covenant", "for ever". I don't think it could be any clearer than it is. Here's the relevent part again:
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. But if you think Jesus and Paul were right to abandon a key tenet of god's word, just because the Romans were hanging around, then that's obviously all OK then.
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Blzebub  Suspended Member (Idle past 5494 days) Posts: 129 Joined: |
So you have no evidence that god/religion does not, cannot, and has not changed. All you have is what you were taught as a child. If your contention is that my responses to the verses provided are incorrect due to God's immutability (not capable of or susceptible to change), then you need to provide the evidence that God is not capable of or susceptible to change. I agree that religion has certainly changed its tune: for example, the Inquisition would be rather tricky to re-enact these days! Asking for evidence that god has (or hasn't) changed is patently absurd. You might as well ask whether I think Father Christmas has changed. But christianity teaches that god hasn't changed. I won't bother to provide any supporting links, because you have disallowed them.
Show evidence that Jesus countered the command not to work on the Sabbath, as opposed to teaching people to address the spirit of the law with common sense. You are playing with words again. Of course he was countering it, by placing the interests of "man" above any petty rules about "the sabbath". The original command is, however, very explicit and it even stipulates that there are to be no exceptions in the future.
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