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Author Topic:   Adding information to the genome.
Huntard
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 99 of 280 (533241)
10-29-2009 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Kaichos Man
10-29-2009 12:57 AM


Re: Lactose added to genome is added information
Kaichos Man writes:

And you can prove it by naming an atheist who doesn't believe in evolution?


Very well. Raƫlians.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-29-2009 12:57 AM Kaichos Man has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Trae, posted 11-05-2009 12:50 PM Huntard has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 119 of 280 (533821)
11-03-2009 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Kaichos Man
11-03-2009 4:32 AM


Re: False Logic again: the ear development is sequential
Kaichos Man writes:

The shrinkage of the malleus and incus must happen at the same time as the expansion of the dentary, otherwise a misshapen jaw results (e.g. an overbite or an underbite).


And as longs as that isn't too severe, it does not impede the organism and will thuis be given to its offspring. Who can then have a mutation that makes it all nice and straight again.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-03-2009 4:32 AM Kaichos Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-03-2009 5:42 AM Huntard has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 122 of 280 (533845)
11-03-2009 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Kaichos Man
11-03-2009 5:42 AM


Re: False Logic again: the ear development is sequential
Kaichos Man writes:

As you well know, the rule with stepwise mutations is that each must confer a survival advantage (in order to become fixed in the population). An overbite or underbite, severe or not, is never going to be a survival advantage.


But if it is "neutral" (not disadvantageous or advantageous), then it will still be passed on to the offspring. If they then have a mutation that makes it beneficial, you've got what you want.

What you're suggesting is reminiscent of Kimura's "survival of the luckiest".

No it isn't. Luck has nothing to do with it.

Though this particular cynodont would have to be extra lucky to a) survive being selected out with a misshapen jaw...

There's no selection at all, if it isn't impeding it, it's passed along.

...b) have progeny that possess a compensatory mutation.

Yes, the offspring would have have a mutation that makes it right again, tthis doesn't have to be the immediate descendant though, as long as there's nothing to impede the creature, it will hapily pass along the "crooked" jaw.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-03-2009 5:42 AM Kaichos Man has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 139 of 280 (534165)
11-05-2009 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Trae
11-05-2009 12:50 PM


Re: Lactose added to genome is added information
Trae writes:

I wonder if some Scientologists and some subsection of Buddhists wouldn't also apply here?


They probably would. Though I don't think Scientologists have problems with evolution. At east, I haven't heard they do.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Trae, posted 11-05-2009 12:50 PM Trae has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by jacortina, posted 11-05-2009 3:28 PM Huntard has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 141 of 280 (534188)
11-05-2009 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by jacortina
11-05-2009 3:28 PM


Re: A Message from Xenu
Thank you galactic lord for confirming my suspicions. They say evolution happened. It's completely wrong in how it went, but still, it's some sort of evolution.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jacortina, posted 11-05-2009 3:28 PM jacortina has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by subbie, posted 11-05-2009 3:50 PM Huntard has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 143 of 280 (534193)
11-05-2009 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by subbie
11-05-2009 3:50 PM


Re: A Message from Xenu
subbie writes:

Yeah, but I didn't think Elroners believed in gods....


But Kaichos man's challenge was to name one (yes, one) atheist who doesn't accept the theory of evolution. Apparently, Scientologists accept some form of evolution, even if they are completely wrong about it. Raƫlians, however, are both atheists and reject evolution.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by subbie, posted 11-05-2009 3:50 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 147 of 280 (534230)
11-06-2009 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by LucyTheApe
11-06-2009 4:05 AM


Re: Willfully...
LucyTheApe writes:

That has led to the whole field of #%$&%%## "science," which seeks to shoehorn those beliefs into some semblance of scientific language in order to allow #%$&%%##s to continue to believe that science corroborates their beliefs when the exact opposite is more often the case.


Yes, creation and creationist, that's what Coyote said. No need to repeat that. And creationism isn't a bad word, no need to censor it....


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by LucyTheApe, posted 11-06-2009 4:05 AM LucyTheApe has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by LucyTheApe, posted 11-06-2009 5:29 AM Huntard has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 149 of 280 (534240)
11-06-2009 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by LucyTheApe
11-06-2009 5:29 AM


Re: Willfully...
Huntard, do you believe that information systems evolve solely as a natural process, or do you know they do?

they evolve solely by natural processes, simply because if something evolves, it is a natural process. I have not seen any information system come about without anything natural either.

Does energy and matter create themselves purely as natural process?

What has that got to do with anything? And yes, they do. Energy turns into matter and matter into energy all by itself.

Is that what you believe or do you know it to be the case?

So far all evidence points to the fact that it does.

Can you show me how rocks turned into humans, or is that just a belief?

If that is what you think happened, then yes, that is a belief. An erroneous one at that.

How strong is your belief in science, will you still believe tomorrow?

I don't believe in science. It has convinced me of it's useful and accurate nature.

Do you believe that what you believe is a belief?

Yes. Beliefs are beliefs. I don't hold too many of them though.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by LucyTheApe, posted 11-06-2009 5:29 AM LucyTheApe has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by LucyTheApe, posted 11-06-2009 7:28 AM Huntard has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 156 of 280 (534252)
11-06-2009 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by LucyTheApe
11-06-2009 7:28 AM


Re: Willfully...
LucyTheApe writes:

You're not answering the question, your begging it. Just answer the question honestly. Do you believe natural laws produce information systems. And if so how?


That's not the question you asked, this is:

LucyTheApe writes in Message 148:

Huntard, do you believe that information systems evolve solely as a natural process, or do you know they do?


Nothing in there about laws. You changed your question when you didn't like the answer. When you bring in natural laws, what do you mean by "information system"? Anything that contains information? Then the answer is yes, they arise by natural laws.

Then you flip an adjective into a noun without suspecting that I'll see your dishonesty.

MY dishonesty? You changed the question when you didn't like the answer. How's that for dishonesty?

It's got everything to do with everything. I'm not talking about conservation, I'm talking about creation. Does matter create itself?

Yes, out of energy, all the time. Still has nothing to do with information though.

Or do you interpret bits of the evidence to fit what you believe?

No. I'm not a creationist.

So you don't believe the whole theory, just the parts that you want to believe.

I don't believe any of it. It has convinced me of its accuracy. belief has nothing to do with it. I'm not a creationist. And nowhere does the theory of evolution say men came from rocks. That is you erroneous belief.

No idea why you quoted that last sentence again without commenting though. Like I told you, I don't hold that many beliefs.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by LucyTheApe, posted 11-06-2009 7:28 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 158 of 280 (534254)
11-06-2009 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Kaichos Man
11-06-2009 8:13 AM


Re: Lactose added to genome is added information
Kaichos Man writes:

It's only your side of the debate that considers them errors.


Yes, that's because our "side" cares about such pesky little things as accuracy and truth.

Do you agree with that, Percy? Are you convinced that relaxation of selective constraint is a prerequisite for evolutionary progress? Do you believe we must be liberated from the erroneous tenets of neo-Darwinism?

Nowhere did he say they were erroneous. You made that up. He wants to relax them, meaning he thinks they play a lesser part than hitherto thought. He doesn't say they are completely wrong.

I asked you (and Coyote, I think) to explain how the genome can evolve by one method and the phenotype by another. If I am wrong, then please forgive me, but I don't recall getting an answer on that one.

the evolution of the phenotype is a result of the evolution of the genotype (if I am not mistaken).

No they are not. And unacceptance does not mean uncomprehension.

It's not that you just don't accept it, you keep repeating the same mistakes.

Indeed. And if your opponent doesn't feel your rebuttal is effective, he's likely to keep using the same arguments.

Yet your arguments have been delt with, the answers given, you just ignore them. That's not just not accepting them, that's completely ignoring anything that doesn't agree with what you think.

Like my mamalian jaw "slowly" evolving example (which was first mentioned by RAZD), I'm guessing you now accept that this is how it could have happened? You didn't respond to my last post on the subject, so I guess your satisfied with the answer.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-06-2009 8:13 AM Kaichos Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-06-2009 9:58 PM Huntard has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 170 of 280 (534354)
11-07-2009 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Kaichos Man
11-06-2009 9:58 PM


Re: Lactose added to genome is added information
Kaichos Man writes:

So our thinking was erroneous with regard to the part they played.


The large role they played in certain situations was wrong according to Kimura. Nowhere does he claim it never happened, nor that it isn't happening within his research. So there are no "erroneous tenets".

That's because the answers given did not, in my opinion, deal with my arguments, so I am well within my rights to ignore them.

Then explain why they are not, don't just repeat yout original statement.

Huntard, do me the honour of not considering me a complete idiot.

I don't. But don't act like ou don't understand anything either.

You will know when I believe my argument has received a mortal blow (or been manoeuvred into apparent deadlock) because I'll probably stop talking about it and change the subject.

Ah. Like the jaw, for example. Ok. Would be a bit clearer if you'd admit it, rather then just stop talking about it tough...

No, quite the reverse. Have you seen the last few exchanges between myself and Wounded King? That discussion has changed markedly...

Which means (as you have stated above) you now think it could've happened gradually.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-06-2009 9:58 PM Kaichos Man has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 184 of 280 (534651)
11-10-2009 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Kaichos Man
11-10-2009 5:04 AM


Re: Lactose added to genome is added information
Kaichos Man writes:

I don't see two, hence the question. You have pointed out that steps 3 and 4 both require natural selection. How so?


They do. Why do you think this means it fills two roles? It does exactly the same in both steps. Selecting favoured stuff, and discarding unfavoured stuff, so to say.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-10-2009 5:04 AM Kaichos Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-10-2009 5:56 AM Huntard has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 190 of 280 (534679)
11-10-2009 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Kaichos Man
11-10-2009 5:56 AM


Re: Lactose added to genome is added information
Kaichos Man writes:

Well, that's one explanation, though it could be argued that it's the same process viewed from different angles.


Yes, it is. Natural selection is one proces, and it fulfills one role. Selecting.

No matter. What is important from the point of view of "Adding information to the genome" is that Kimura clearly saw no significant role for selection in the creation of variation. He attributes that to gene duplication and random drift.

As does every other biologist. At least, I haven't seen one that thinks natural selection is responsible for variation. That's what mutation is for.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-10-2009 5:56 AM Kaichos Man has acknowledged this reply

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 194 of 280 (534811)
11-11-2009 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Kaichos Man
11-11-2009 6:57 AM


Re: You just refuse to get it!
Kaichos Man writes:

You're missing the point here, Coyote. Kimura is saying that hemoglobin didn't have to vary at all. That's why he calls it "unnecessary evolution".


So? What's your point with this?


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-11-2009 6:57 AM Kaichos Man has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 258 of 280 (538699)
12-09-2009 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Bolder-dash
12-09-2009 8:51 AM


Re: no
I find it very funny and ironic that you are the one complaining about obfuscation. I remember a certain thread where only after about 100 posts or so it became clear you actually wanted to talk about something different then what you had asked in your OP.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-09-2009 8:51 AM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-09-2009 9:22 AM Huntard has responded

    
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