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Author Topic:   Adding information to the genome.
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3411 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


(2)
Message 61 of 280 (532452)
10-23-2009 1:26 PM


Look, Ma! I'm adding information!
Look, you want a situation where "information" can be added. Look up polyploidy and then find out its effect on plants. Then take a look at the salsify plant.

You keep arguing that you can't add information to the genome. What you have done is simplified the problem to such an extreme that you ignore other relevant information. First off, if you are talking about the full set of chromosomes in a gamete, then I have news for you - one gamete is only part of what non-haploid organisms need. Non-haploid organisms, such as humans, need more than one set of chromosomes in order to develop; the development of many organisms require more than a single set of the genome. Some organisms need two. That means that you can add information to the development of an organism by increasing the number of chromosomes used in development. We call that polyploidy. For instance, there are species of animals, including humans, where polyploidy can occur, thus adding information to the development of the organism. And polyploidy is very common in plants, as I'm sure any botanist could tell you. In fact, polyploidy in plants may be a contributing factor in the speciation in plants. The salsify plant is just one example.

In short, there are many more factors to the development of an organism and adding information through extra chromosomes to influence the development of an organism is not only possible, it happens quite a bit in plants.

In addition, the complexity of an organism bears no relation to the size of the genome. The human, a more complex organism, has 3,200,000,000 base pairs while the lowly amoeba has a whooping 670,000,000,000 base pairs.

Ironically, while the creationist principal may be sound; that is, the evolution from some single-cell organism to human may have resulted in a net decrease in the size of the genome, the reasoning behind that principle is not. This, of course, is purely speculation on my part and should be taken with multiple grains of salt.

To sum up, adding "information" to the development of the creature is not only possible; it happens often. Speciation through this addition may occur and actually has occurred based on numerous observations of plants of which I have mentioned the salsify plant. And the addition of information is not the only way speciation, and ultimately evolution, can occur. I think the argument you need to make from now on is how the addition, maintenance, or deletion to the factors that affect an organism's development do not cause evolution to occur.

Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.

Edited by Izanagi, : Title


It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
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Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
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You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3411 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


(2)
Message 72 of 280 (532710)
10-25-2009 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Kaichos Man
10-25-2009 8:06 AM


Re: Addition of Information
No. I'm saying that if information is added, and other information is taken away simultaneously, then there's no nett increase in information.

Ok, maybe you didn't see my post so I'll explain again. For non-haploid organisms, a single set of the genome is inadequate for development. For instance, humans, a diploid organism, need two sets of chromosomes, one from the mother and one from the father.

Now you have been arguing for a net increase in information in the genome. But there are other development factors that you have been neglecting where a net increase in information is possible. Polyploidy is a net increase in information in developing an organism, specifically, the addition of chromosomes. For animals, polyploidy doesn't occur often, but it does occur. In humans, polyploidy typically causes a miscarriage. In cases where the pregnancy results in birth, the infant doesn't survive very long.

Polyploidy in plants, on the the other hand, occurs very often. There have been instances where polyploidy directly resulted in the evolution of another species of plant, the salsify plant. I have therefore shown you a case where a net increase of information in the development factors of an organism has happened.

Also important is that there is no correlation between the complexity of an organism and the size of the genome. The human genome has less base pairs than the genome of the amoeba. So to evolve a population of organisms, a net increase in information isn't necessary - only that the genome, or any of the other development factors change in some fashion.

So your argument about a net increase in information looks at only a part of what evolution is. The example of one gene being inserted and another taken out is also part of the evolutionary process because change has occurred. The deletion of a particular sequence without any addition is also part of the evolutionary process because change has occurred. Even adding an extra sex chromosome to an organism is part of the evolutionary process because change has occurred. So if you can ever prove that changes to organisms don't happen, then you can disprove evolution. But disproving that there can be no net increase in information does nothing significant to disprove evolution as a whole.

ABE: A couple of human disorders resulting from chromosomal duplication (adding information to a particular chromosome without a deletion elsewhere) are Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease and Pelizaeus-Merzbacher disease. These are exact cases of net information gain that you have been requesting. A portion of the chromosome is duplicated without deletions elsewhere.

Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.

Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.

Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.


It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-25-2009 8:06 AM Kaichos Man has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by RAZD, posted 10-25-2009 10:39 PM Izanagi has responded

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3411 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 74 of 280 (532715)
10-25-2009 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by RAZD
10-25-2009 10:39 PM


Re: Addition of Information
The IDist argument about increase in information is born from the old creationist argument about changes in species only showing loss and decay from the original created "kinds" due to the introduction of disease and death after the "fall" -- ie a purely religious origin

Which is a bit ridiculous to me because it still seems like they accept evolution except they don't accept the genome can "add information."

The fact that there is so much evidence of loss and recovery that it becomes virtually self-evident that either gain in information does occur, or that the concept of information used by the IDcreationists is useless in predicting any restriction on evolution.

I wanted to show that "information gain" does occur, so I threw chromosomal duplication into the fray. Since it has been evidenced, chromosomal duplication seems like the perfect argument against Kaichos' argument.

And result in virtually instant speciation. One known example in mammals is (not really a) rat in Argentina

I knew of the rat, although I didn't read too much into it. I appreciate the link though; I'll take a look at it when I can.

Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.


It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by RAZD, posted 10-25-2009 10:39 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
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