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Author Topic:   Hybrids and Evolution
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2725 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 11 of 26 (532332)
10-22-2009 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Straggler
10-21-2009 7:03 PM


Re: A Liger
Hi, Straggler.
Straggler writes:
Was this a natural occurrance or (as I am assuming) bred in a lab?
Tigers and lions don't really coexist in nature: there is only a small population of Asian lions left, and I don't think any tigers live in the same vicinity.
So, this was definitely a zoo/circus stunt.
-----
Straggler writes:
How do we genetically account for a hybrid animal of this type that is twice the size of either of it's parent species?
I'm not sure that this is actually known, but I'll share with you the version I've been told.
As social animals, lions benefit from being larger, because larger animals become dominant in prides, particularly larger males. So, there are some growth factors the promote large body size in lions. But, large cubs tend to maim mother lions, so mother lions have the ability to suppress the growth factors.
So, when you mate a male lion to a female tiger, you get the growth factors without the inhibiting factors (which only come from female lions). So, ligers grow very large.
A male tiger does not produce the growth factors that a male lion produces, so, if you mate a male tiger to a female lion, you get the inhibitors without the growth factors, resulting in a small, frail animal (a tigon).

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Straggler, posted 10-21-2009 7:03 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2725 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 12 of 26 (532335)
10-22-2009 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Perdition
10-22-2009 11:35 AM


Re: Whyfore Hybrids?
Hi, Perdition.
Perdition writes:
As far as I know, most hybrids are pretty much forced, either in a lab by humans, or by extreme environmental factors...
It's actually really common among birds.
Mallards will mate with many other kinds of duck.
Indigo and Lazuli buntings interbreed where their ranges overlap.
Baltimore and Bullock's Orioles used to be thought to be one species (the Northern Oriole), because they interbreed readily.
Hybrids usually have poor survival in relation to purebreds, so interbreeding can actually be a major problem if one species is much more common than another. If the less-common species readily breeds with the more-common species, but the hybrids are less fit, the less-common species will experience rapid population decline.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Perdition, posted 10-22-2009 11:35 AM Perdition has seen this message but not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2725 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(2)
Message 15 of 26 (532561)
10-24-2009 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
10-21-2009 5:04 PM


Musings on Hybrids
Hi, Straggler.
Straggler writes:
How closely related do species have to be in order to successfully breed a hybrid? What do we actually mean by "closely related"? What does this mean in terms of DNA, genetics, chromosomes etc. etc.?
Given all the subjectivity involved in biological definitions, I’m not sure we can actually say that hybridization really means all that much. Hybrid is, itself, a rather vague term, defined as the fusion of two other things that were previously classified as distinct from one another based on equally vague and subjective terms.
I’m quickly learning that this is one of the central themes of biology: we like things to live by rules, so we can define them and categorize them and organize our information about them... but, life simply isn’t bound by any of the rules we think apply to it.
We can design theories that effectively explain patterns of behavior across populations of organisms, but we can’t use these theories to predict, with any useful degree of accuracy, the behavior of any particular individual organism.
The Theory of Evolution has provided us with at least two frameworks for evaluating the likelihood of the occurrence of certain behaviors: one called optimization theory and one based on game theory. Optimization obviously refers to the tendency of natural selection to amplify the segment of a population whose behaviors are most successful in their environment. Thus, under this criterion, we expect that nature will be largely full of species that are optimized, or well-adapted, to their environment. Game theory refers to the interplay between different organisms all competing for the same resource or payoff.
But, evolution works on a scale to which individual organisms are largely insensitive. So, evolution does not drive the behavioral patterns of organisms, because it can only function ex post facto, and its only means of feedback is through differentialy success of phenotypes. Thus, the reason an organism performs some certain behavior (e.g. sex) has nothing to do with its evolutionary benefits: nobody has sex for an evolutionary advantage: they do it because it tickles their pleasure centers. A pleasure center is nothing but a way to attach a short-term reward to a successful long-term strategy.
So, that some organisms end up being attracted to the wrong kind of potential mate, evolutionarily speaking, doesn’t really mean much, except that there is lots of wild, random variation within populations. From an evolutionary standpoint, hybridization, homosexuality, and other things that have long been thought of as sexual perversities are dead-ends. But, because the behaviors of individual organisms do not respond to evolutionary pressures, we shouldn’t expect all behaviors to be adaptationist.
-----
As far as genetics go... biological molecules are also insensitive to evolution. If a hybrid is viable, all it means from the standpoint of molecules is that a massive network of chemical reactions is proceeding in a stable, cyclical fashion. The more divergence you have between the interacting parts of the chemical network, the more chances you have to throw the reaction off balance.
But, context defines everything... I think it’s going to be very difficult to discuss the genetics behind hybridization without some serious equivocation on the rules that define the process.
-----
Bed time for Bluejay. Good night.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 10-21-2009 5:04 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
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