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Author Topic:   Noahs Flood
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 15 of 100 (532885)
10-27-2009 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peg
10-27-2009 2:37 AM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
Hi Peg, just a small point
What do you say about the 'clovis culture' regarding their replacement by several other cultures from the time of the Younger Dryas?
I think you may have these backwards, or I am not reading your comment correctly:
Clovis Culture - Ohio History Central
quote:
Clovis Culture
9500 B.C. to 8000 B.C.
The Clovis culture is one of the oldest widely recognized cultures of prehistoric native peoples in North America. The hallmark of the Clovis culture is the Clovis spear point. It is named for Clovis, New Mexico, where it was first recognized as a tool of Ice Age people. Archaeologists have found Clovis points from Alaska to northern Mexico and from California to Maine. They are especially common in Ohio and other eastern states. Radiocarbon dates on Clovis sites across North America indicate these people lived between 9500 to 8000 B.C.
In the southwestern United States, Clovis points have been found stuck in the ribs of mammoths. In eastern North America, they have been found with mastodon skeletons. It is likely that these hunting and gathering people ate a variety of plants and animals.
I believe the Clovis people are considered the ancestors to all the more modern NA indian tribes.
http://www.agu.org/revgeophys/mayews01/node6.html
quote:
Most recently the YD has been redated--using precision, subannually resolved, multivariate measurements from the GISP2 core--as an event of 1300+/-70 years duration that terminated abruptly, as evidenced by an 7C rise in temperature and a twofold increase in accumulation rate, at 11.64 kyr BP [ Alley et al., 1993] (Figure 2).
That's ending ~11,640 years before 1950, or 9,690 BCE, and starting ~10,990 BCE
Thus the Clovis Culture comes after the Lesser Dryas cold snap. The Clovis Culture is marked by a technological change in the making of spear points and knife blades, much more efficient tools than previously used.
Do you agree that there is an observed change in the archaeological record including numerous extinctions at this time? and if not, why not?
One of the theories for the extinctions was the improved ability of the plaeo-indians to kill large animals. Not all mass extinctions are due to floods, and we are witnessing what appears to be mass extinctions on earth due to human population pressure on ecosystems around the world. One of the pieces of evidence is that there was no extinction of people in those periods. Sabertooth tigers, giant sloths, cave bears, dire wolves, and mammoths are all found with evidence of being hunted.
The ability to be more efficient hunters resulted in a population explosion as humans spread across the NA continent, and these populations divided into federated tribes that then developed in different ways to adapt their technologies to their ecologies.
I know the dating of this is 8,000 odd years ago, but putting the date aside, ..
Ignoring the evidence of dates doesn't help, as one would not expect to find organisms subject to extinction in certain areas due to a flood event to be founr in other locations after a flood event -- there is a mis-match of living organisms before and after. The mis-match is explained by the floods occurring at different times, and when you plot the floods by the organisms before and after and compare them to the scientific dates there is good correlations for the dates.
On extinction of human populations that is not explained thoroughly is the dissappearance of the Anassazi indians during drought conditions
http://www.crystalinks.com/anasazi.html
But they came much later (beginning around 1200 B.C., and ending 1150 to 1350 AD) and may have merge with other tribes (either intentionally or by forced slavery).
But no evidence of flood in this time.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Peg, posted 10-27-2009 2:37 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by anglagard, posted 10-27-2009 2:41 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 19 of 100 (532975)
10-27-2009 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by anglagard
10-27-2009 2:41 PM


Re: On Floods, Eruptions, and Disruptions
Hi aanglagard, long time no see.
Hi RAZD, best of wishes for the #1 quality poster!
Two days down and one to go for this session. Drugs make me tired and a little congested.
Awesome, I only have my momentary visit and fascination with the cultures several years back (86?).
I think it is rather obvious that the several so-called Pueblo tribes, given the similarities in building style, pottery, jewelry, and other artifacts are likely the direct descendants of the so-called Anasazi, if not genetically then at least culturally, but most likely a mix of both IMO.
True, but not the buildings like the Anasazi, and all references I heard were that they were the "ancient ones" which doesn't sound like people absorbed into later tribes.
Also, if one seeks to look at some catastrophe as a cause of this disruption in the continuation of the Anasazi culture, there are two other events that occurred around 1200 AD that may be considered contributors.
That would certainly be a final straw for a culture stressed by annual droughts.
People could have left in small groups, perhaps to live with relatives in other areas, and just have melted away. Certainly there is no evidence of the people being attacked and conquered.
Certainly there is no evidence of flooding.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by anglagard, posted 10-27-2009 2:41 PM anglagard has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 24 of 100 (533115)
10-28-2009 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by kbertsche
10-28-2009 8:36 PM


It was supposed to be a house
Hi kbertsche, it's been a while since I last visited this flood scenario.
Ryan & Pitman's case is convincingly presented in their book, but this is written at a popular level. I haven't read their scientific papers or compared them with Aksu et al.
As mentioned earlier, Ryan and Pitman are not creationists, but professional geologists working at one of the world's most prestigious geology laboratories (Lamont-Doherty). They are not proposing a global flood.
I don't think any one is claiming that, rather that it could have been a rather spectacular one-of-a-kind local flood.
IIRC there was more evidence than just a lot of water, involving fresh water organisms at the bottom, but that it had died due to being now in a salty anaerobic environment, meaning that the characteristics of the bottom had been changed by the addition of lots of salt water.
National Geographic - 404
quote:
Ballard’s 1999 expedition revealed an ancient shoreline. Also found were shells from freshwater and saltwater mollusk species. Their radiocarbon dates support the theory of a freshwater lake inundated by the Black Sea some 7,000 years ago.
Then they went house hunting:
quote:
The shipwreck finds are significant. [They have the potential to educate us a great deal, Ward tells me later.]
The archaeologists are thrilled. Ballard doesn’t quite share their enthusiasm. Rats, he says. It was supposed to be a house.
No signs of habitation at the old level were found, but the search was not exhaustive either.
IIRC Glen Morton (OEC) also proposed that the Mediterranean flooded by the same process to account for the tale. To me the rate of flooding is relatively unimportant, as flooding is only half the tale -- the other half is when the water recedes, and neither of these massive flooding scenarios include any subsequent lowering of the water level to reveal the land.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by kbertsche, posted 10-28-2009 8:36 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by kbertsche, posted 10-29-2009 12:28 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
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