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Author Topic:   Noahs Flood
ochaye
Member (Idle past 4478 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


(1)
Message 31 of 100 (534552)
11-09-2009 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by MarkAustin
11-08-2009 11:02 AM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
quote:
The esistence of local floods is of no help

It was the existence of local floods, that killed a few, that no doubt helped stimulate the global flood stories. Natural disasters were typically reckoned to be acts of a deity to punish some individual or community for some transgression. The guilt of these people, and the feeling that there was inevitable divine retribution somewhere in one's fate, was probably the main stimulus for global flood myths. The Genesis version is no exception, and makes very clear that the whole earth was immersed, and that not one breathing creature survived except those in the Ark. Those religionists who attempt to square this account with a local flood have to breach the literal sense, which makes their whole modus operandi an absurdity.

Edited by ochaye, : clarification


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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 32 of 100 (535695)
11-17-2009 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peg
10-27-2009 2:37 AM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
Peg writes:

In order to find evidence of a 'global' flood, surely we'd need every area of earth tested.

Actually, surely not. All that is needed is to find ONE area of the earth where said "global" flood could not have happened. Then by definition, the "global" flood did not occur.


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greyseal
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 33 of 100 (535719)
11-17-2009 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by deerbreh
11-17-2009 11:59 AM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
Peg writes:

In order to find evidence of a 'global' flood, surely we'd need every area of earth tested.

Actually, surely not. All that is needed is to find ONE area of the earth where said "global" flood could not have happened. Then by definition, the "global" flood did not occur.

Unlike the theory of gravity - where a single observation would mean the theory is incomplete but not to be utterly rejected "just so" - the simplistic "noachic flood" need be proved wrong only by simple observations that do one of two things:

a) place no flood markings in identically-dated strata at any two points on the planet (well, in one generally agreed to BE the right time, and another similarly dated somewhere, anywhere, else) - this is probably trivial or is just so well documented it's pointless pointing it out.

or

b) place continuous dwellings at any point on the planet during and before the date in time that the grande meisters of biblical extrapolation demand the flood take place.

for example, Egypt.

In opposition to this, we have the obvious world-wide catastrophe which is thought to have ended the reign of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago with a layer of sediment found the world over - everywhere.


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AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 34 of 100 (535726)
11-17-2009 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by deerbreh
11-17-2009 11:59 AM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
How does one prove that a flood did not occur in, say, Omaha Nebraska in c, 2200 bce? Must a flood always leave evidence, even a very deep flood? Could not subsequent events, a wind or sand storm perhaps or other anomaly, remove all evidence of such a flood?

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 1345 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 35 of 100 (535764)
11-17-2009 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by AnswersInGenitals
11-17-2009 3:41 PM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
How does one prove that a flood did not occur in, say, Omaha Nebraska in c, 2200 bce? Must a flood always leave evidence, even a very deep flood? Could not subsequent events, a wind or sand storm perhaps or other anomaly, remove all evidence of such a flood?

You ask the local archaeologists.

If they have evidence of cultural continuity, genetic continuity, and stratigraphy from before to after the date of the flood (4350 years ago) then there was no flood at that time.

Edited by Coyote, : Double quote; one removed


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 36 of 100 (535852)
11-18-2009 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by AnswersInGenitals
11-17-2009 3:41 PM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
How does one prove that a flood did not occur in, say, Omaha Nebraska in c, 2200 bce? Must a flood always leave evidence, even a very deep flood? Could not subsequent events, a wind or sand storm perhaps or other anomaly, remove all evidence of such a flood?

But that is the beauty of falsification. So you cannot do it at one site such as Omaha Neb. As Coyote and Grayseal have pointed out, all you need is proof of continuity of some feature at ANY site (and we have many) which would have been destroyed or altered by a world wide flood. In my opinion the geological column is the biggest impediment to the flooders - particularly in places like the Grand Canyon. You just cannot explain the Grand Canyon with a world wide flood within the past several hundred million years.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 37 of 100 (535857)
11-18-2009 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
10-29-2009 5:11 AM


Re: Rub-a-dub-dub.
Sometimes my deadpan sarcasm backfires: I'm too English!

Keep clear of sarcasm and irony with our cousins across the water and you'll be swell.


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Perdition
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 38 of 100 (535868)
11-18-2009 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Larni
11-18-2009 12:47 PM


Re: Rub-a-dub-dub.
Keep clear of sarcasm and irony with our cousins across the water and you'll be swell.

Some of us appreciate sarcasm and irony. Sarcasm is darn near my native tongue.

It gets tough to convey over written text, however, unless you know the poster very well.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 39 of 100 (535885)
11-18-2009 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Perdition
11-18-2009 1:54 PM


Re: Rub-a-dub-dub.

I guess that just proves all generalisations are wrong.


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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 100 (537693)
11-30-2009 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
10-25-2009 7:42 AM


Large, localized flood
Im interested if anyone else has read it and what they think of the evidence that these researchers found regarding the sudden disapearance of populations and the repopulation by new settlers with more advanced technologies.

I've read it and thought it was well-written and well-sourced. I think there is more than sufficient evidence to assume that a flood killed many people in the Mesopotamian region, and that the Black Sea used to be the Black Lake, which had inhabitants living there for many years.

It also does a lot to explain the Deluge stories spoken of in many Middle-eastern traditions.


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 100 (537694)
11-30-2009 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by AnswersInGenitals
10-25-2009 3:32 PM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
why did you label this topic as "Noah's flood"?

Because that's the title of the book she is sourcing.


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 100 (537701)
11-30-2009 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peg
10-27-2009 2:37 AM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
I first want you to read this article, which is verified empirically. Notice at the bottom it speaks of creation, yet all these civilizations were already in existance. The biblical timeline, while in some regards appears to do a good job of chronicaling from Adam to Jesus, is not accurate enough.

Do you have any timelines for the people of Nth america?

It is difficult to precisely say when the first migration of clovis, pre-clovis, and paleo-indians made the first journey. What we can know is when the latest that migration began. There were human remains found on

A new discovery makes the Eva de Naharon the oldest known human remains in North America. There are other comparable sites found in caves in Oregon and others on Santa Rosa island, CA, dating some 13,000 years.

What do you say about the 'clovis culture' regarding their replacement by several other cultures from the time of the Younger Dryas?

There is dispute that pre-clovis cultures existed in the Americas. There is new evidence to suggest this. Some point to the Solutrean hypothesis based on superficial evidence, but it does not have a lot of support.

Do you agree that there is an observed change in the archaeological record including numerous extinctions at this time? and if not, why not?

There's always numerous extinctions going on.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 43 of 100 (542056)
01-07-2010 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Hyroglyphx
11-30-2009 10:40 AM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
The biblical timeline, while in some regards appears to do a good job of chronicaling from Adam to Jesus, is not accurate enough.

I don't think the biblical timeline does a good job in any regards. Even if one accepts the "begats" as literal history (which is a huge false premise, given the outlandish life spans) only about 4000 years is accounted for from Adam to Jesus. If one accepts that the expulsion from the Garden of Eden is an account of the beginning of agriculture, which is so obvious it is really a no brainer, we know the time from Adam to Jesus was at least 8,000 years, as all archeological data point to the beginning of agriculture as being at least 10,000 years ago.


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Taz
Member (Idle past 2531 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 44 of 100 (542078)
01-07-2010 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peg
10-27-2009 2:37 AM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
Peg writes:

In order to find evidence of a 'global' flood, surely we'd need every area of earth tested. I wouldnt expect to find a global flood by looking at just north americal.


I'm sorry for coming into this conversation a little late. Just glossing through the threads on my day off.

But how does your statement above even make any sense?

Let's look at a small picture. If there was a house wide flood in my house, I should be able to find evidence for this house wide flood everywhere and anywhere in my house. But if I look at a random place in my house, say the living room, and found no evidence of the said flood, then there was no house wide flood.

Coyote already said there's no evidence for a massive continental flood in North America at the time of the supposed world wide flood. If we couldn't find evidence for a massive flood in just one part of the world at that time, then we can stop there and conclude that there was no world wide flood at that time.

If, however, we did find evidence for this flood in North America, then we can move on to, say, Europe and Africa, etc. But once we've found a place where there was no flood at that time, then we can stop there and conclude there was no world wide flood at that time.


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rockondon
Member (Idle past 4165 days)
Posts: 40
Joined: 03-29-2010


Message 45 of 100 (552679)
03-30-2010 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peg
10-27-2009 2:37 AM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
quote:
In order to find evidence of a 'global' flood, surely we'd need every area of earth tested.
I'm just picturing someone who, after finding a thousand sites that show that there was never a global flood there, they still scour the world checking out thousands more sites. But I digress.

Most flood dates that I've seen for Noah's ark agreed on 2349 BC.

One of the amazing things about the flood story is how dedicated people are in writing their histories. For example, even though the Egyptians were many miles underwater, they kept writing histories as though nothing happened. Aside from routine local floods (such as the Nile which flooded every year) they didn't even mention it. Not even a "oh btw we're 5 miles underwater and we're all dead" or anything. Now that's dedication. Still, you'd think they could at least mention...humidity...or something.

Two other cultures I'd like to give props to are Sumer and Indus valley for writing their histories before, during, and after this supposed global flood as though it never happened. Much hardier folk than the people of today, surely. Modern writers always stop writing when they can't breathe and are crushed to a pulp.


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