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Author Topic:   Noahs Flood
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3516 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 46 of 100 (562389)
05-28-2010 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by rockondon
03-30-2010 3:52 PM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
Good point about Egypt. Usually a total die off is accompanied with a massive cultural change. If the flood was 3,000 BC, there would be few records. Still, Jericho has an occupation record that covers all flood dates.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by rockondon, posted 03-30-2010 3:52 PM rockondon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ZenMonkey, posted 05-28-2010 8:18 PM greentwiga has replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4599 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


(1)
Message 47 of 100 (562441)
05-28-2010 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by greentwiga
05-28-2010 10:45 AM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
greentwiga writes:
If the flood was 3,000 BC, there would be few records. Still, Jericho has an occupation record that covers all flood dates.
Um, I'm not sure if you're talking about no records before or no records after the flood, but I believe that what the evidence should show is plenty of durable records (e.g. stone carvings) and maybe some few perishible records from before the Flood, then nothing at all anywhere on Earth for decades or even hundreds of years, until Noah's descendents started repopulating the globe. Not something that would happen in just a couple of months.
And doesn't the fact the Jericho's record of continuous inhabitation going back further than any proposed flood date kinda also make you suspect that the Flood never happened? The mass extinction of almost every living thing on the planet is usually the sort of thing that somebody will remember to mention in the records.

I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
What's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a new puppy? The puppy eventually grows up and quits whining.
-Steven Dutch

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by greentwiga, posted 05-28-2010 10:45 AM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by greentwiga, posted 05-28-2010 11:13 PM ZenMonkey has replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3516 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 48 of 100 (562454)
05-28-2010 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ZenMonkey
05-28-2010 8:18 PM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
Remember, I maintain that the Bible is describing a regional flood. With the first true writing invented in Sumer a little after 3,000 BC, There would be no written records, and only the pre writing accounting records before the flood, there were few "WRITTEN" records.
Jericho does show that the flood never reached there, but the verbal stories, later written down, showing that the flood reached all the way to Kish, agree with a regional flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ZenMonkey, posted 05-28-2010 8:18 PM ZenMonkey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Iblis, posted 05-29-2010 12:53 AM greentwiga has replied
 Message 50 by ZenMonkey, posted 05-29-2010 1:30 AM greentwiga has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 49 of 100 (562465)
05-29-2010 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by greentwiga
05-28-2010 11:13 PM


sanity check
I maintain that the Bible is describing a regional flood
How did you end up in an argument in the first place then?
I point out that the Ur flood is well documented and turned the Tigris-Euphrates basin into a lake temporarily the one rainy season every other Flud thread, and no one ever argues with me. They think you are talking about Flood Geology (Catastrophism). How did that happen? What is it about you that makes you seem wrongheaded?
I'm not dissing you, I been there myself. But ask yourself these questions. You are in a thread, about a book, that claims the Black Sea refill is what caused the story. You disagree with that, you disagree with Flood Geology, yet, you are having a confused shit-toss with people on the same side of the question as you.
How did that happen?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by greentwiga, posted 05-28-2010 11:13 PM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by greentwiga, posted 05-29-2010 1:30 AM Iblis has replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4599 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


(2)
Message 50 of 100 (562471)
05-29-2010 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by greentwiga
05-28-2010 11:13 PM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
greentwiga writes:
Jericho does show that the flood never reached there, but the verbal stories, later written down, showing that the flood reached all the way to Kish, agree with a regional flood.
Are you talking about Kish near Babylon and Baghdad (elevation 112 feet above sea level) between the Tigris and Euphrates? So your flood couldn't make it all the way across a few hundred miles of what looks like pretty flat country to cover Jericho (846 ft BELOW sea level), but could somehow manage to carry the Ark hundreds of miles further north to put it on top of Mount Ararat in Turkey (elevation 16,854 feet above sea level)?
Can you tell me how that makes any sense at all?

I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
What's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a new puppy? The puppy eventually grows up and quits whining.
-Steven Dutch

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by greentwiga, posted 05-28-2010 11:13 PM greentwiga has replied

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greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3516 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 51 of 100 (562472)
05-29-2010 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Iblis
05-29-2010 12:53 AM


Re: sanity check
I happen to disagree that the Black Sea flood had anything to do with the Biblical flood. I also disagree with the world wide flood. I do believe that the Biblical description is literally true, though the traditional interpretation is wrong. People tend to put me in some category of theirs and then get confused because I don't always fit.
Though I accept the Black Sea flood as a real flood, do you want my reasons for rejecting it as Noah's flood?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Iblis, posted 05-29-2010 12:53 AM Iblis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Iblis, posted 05-29-2010 1:48 AM greentwiga has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


(2)
Message 52 of 100 (562473)
05-29-2010 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by greentwiga
05-29-2010 1:30 AM


Re: sanity check
I happen to disagree that the Black Sea flood had anything to do with the Biblical flood.
Check.
I also disagree with the world wide flood.
Check.
I do believe that the Biblical description is literally true, though the traditional interpretation is wrong.
Reservations about the word "literally", unless you are using it to mean that the story material has been preserved word-for-word then you are liable to be confused here. Are you some sort of NIV evangelical?
Nor is Flood Geology the traditional interpretation, it was invented in an attempt to explain away stratification by people who don't understand the use of genre in scripture. "Creation Science" is NOT traditional Creationism.
People tend to put me in some category of theirs and then get confused because I don't always fit.
No good. You are the one who put yourself in this spot. Blaming other people is no use, as you cannot control other people until you learn to control your own circumstances. Once you control your own mind, controlling others will be remarkably easy.
Though I accept the Black Sea flood as a real flood, do you want my reasons for rejecting it as Noah's flood?
No point. Everyone here knows Noah's flood is the Ur flood, to the extent that it is anything historical at all. They just don't talk much about it because it's a lot more fun to watch one side make up ridiculous pseudo-science composed of Lies, Damned Lies, and The Buzsaw Theory while the other side goes straight to hell for understanding simple geology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by greentwiga, posted 05-29-2010 1:30 AM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by greentwiga, posted 05-29-2010 2:25 AM Iblis has replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3516 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 53 of 100 (562478)
05-29-2010 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ZenMonkey
05-29-2010 1:30 AM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
I never said it landed on Mt Ararat. The at ending is a feminine ending. Arar can mean hill country. There are several possibilities that would fit. One would be the proto ziggurat of 3,000 BC, one belonging to a goddess. A 30 foot tall sacred mountain could be covered 20 feet (50 feet of floodwater.) I am not saying that it had to be a ziggurat, but offering it as an alternative that fits the "mountains of ararat." The country of Ararat (around the mountain) did not arise until about a thousand years later.
The description of the flood could indicate not only rain and the river rising but some sort of storm surge or tsunami such as might be caused by a landslide into the Persian gulf triggered by the rain. The total could be 50 feet deep.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ZenMonkey, posted 05-29-2010 1:30 AM ZenMonkey has not replied

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 Message 54 by DrJones*, posted 05-29-2010 2:19 AM greentwiga has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2293
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 54 of 100 (562479)
05-29-2010 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by greentwiga
05-29-2010 2:01 AM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
The total could be 50 feet deep.
Really? Show the math.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by greentwiga, posted 05-29-2010 2:01 AM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by greentwiga, posted 05-29-2010 10:06 AM DrJones* has replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3516 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 55 of 100 (562480)
05-29-2010 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Iblis
05-29-2010 1:48 AM


Re: sanity check
quote:
Reservations about the word "literally", unless you are using it to mean that the story material has been preserved word-for-word then you are liable to be confused here. Are you some sort of NIV evangelical?
Nor is Flood Geology the traditional interpretation, it was invented in an attempt to explain away stratification by people who don't understand the use of genre in scripture. "Creation Science" is NOT traditional Creationism.
I am not sure what a NIV evangelical is.
Yes, I can see it is fun to set up the creation science believers as straw dogs and then shoot them down.
Just because Lamark was wrong, doesn't mean science is wrong. Just because the CRI people are wrong doesn't mean the Bible is wrong. I jump in when people insist that the Biblical passage is a myth that has only a little accuracy. The main points that I make are that a marsh flood can last over a year, the reed boat can be huge, It could hold the Sumerian animals, that all the holy mountains of the region could have been covered, and the ark could have landed on a ziggurat or some other sacred mountain of the marsh region.
I am flexible about the meanings of the mountains of Ararat. Where the Biblical description can only fit a Marsh flood, the mountain reference is less detailed and can fit several possibilities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Iblis, posted 05-29-2010 1:48 AM Iblis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Iblis, posted 05-29-2010 3:45 AM greentwiga has not replied
 Message 57 by ZenMonkey, posted 05-29-2010 4:20 AM greentwiga has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


(1)
Message 56 of 100 (562485)
05-29-2010 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by greentwiga
05-29-2010 2:25 AM


Re: sanity check
what a NIV evangelical is
The New International Version is a severely bowdlerized "dynamic equivalence" paraphrase of a reconstructed text not found as such in any ancient document. It was heavily marketed to churches beginning in the late 1970s and represents the real value of degrees earned at conservative "Bible Colleges". An "NIV Evangelical" is one of the surprising number of people who point at this loopy barely-a-commentary and claim that it is not only, the Bible, but, that it is "literally true."
It's a picturesque way of identifying what are properly called pseudo-literalists. They are using "literally" as a buzzword, to mean something like "very", rather than for its actual meaning, which is, exact to the letter. True literalism is a scribal tradition, it means either you get the exact words and markings exactly right, from one generation to the next, or else when your bad copy is checked against the copy we are keeping sealed, and the error is found, then after that you will have absolutely no skin whatsoever on your back.
Thus a literal translation is one that makes every effort to retain the exact meaning of the words, and the idioms formed from them, from one language to the next. "Literally true" in this proper context means that the message has been preserved through this process, from that day to this one. The Dead Sea Scrolls on the one hand and the Gilgamesh and the Atrahasis on the other, show what an awesome job has been done. This really is a text that they had in the First Century. These really are the stories they were telling in Sumer when kingship descended again from Eridu.
straw dogs
Paper tigers.
The main points that I make are that
Don't just list them, though; actually make them. You are talking about the hydrodynamics of geology to actual working archaeologists and devoted amateurs. If you are going to believe these things, first understand the implications and then verify those implications. Do science, be sure. Don't risk convincing more people that there is no god just because you didn't do your homework. The gaps close, you understand?
a marsh flood can last over a year
Can it? Even if there are two huge rivers flowing through it? What keeps that marshwater from draining off south to lower elevations? What indications do the Ur and Shurrupak digs give us as to the length of the flooding? What do the source texts say on this point, do they even seem to agree amongst themselves?
the reed boat can be huge
A huge beating. But not my problem, I'm sticking with "gopher wood" for poetic reasons, and you already have too much explaining to do on this one to ever get to my lecture on Cyprus.
It could hold the Sumerian animals
Be specific. Which animals and why? What's their purpose on the boat? How long are they there, how much do they eat every day, how are supplies maintained? What is done with the resulting fertilizer? How many people would it take to do this work?
that all the holy mountains of the region could have been covered, and the ark could have landed on a ziggurat or some other sacred mountain of the marsh region.
Not, very much, my problem. With a minor quibble about your depths; demonstrate water depth in relation to sea level due to specific causes for specific lengths of time. Verify your answers against real events and real geology.
I am flexible about the meanings of the mountains of Ararat.
Look into the meaning and usage of the word "Ur-artu". Be careful.
Edited by Iblis, : grammar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by greentwiga, posted 05-29-2010 2:25 AM greentwiga has not replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4599 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


(2)
Message 57 of 100 (562486)
05-29-2010 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by greentwiga
05-29-2010 2:25 AM


Re: sanity check
greentwiga writes:
The main points that I make are that a marsh flood can last over a year, the reed boat can be huge, It could hold the Sumerian animals, that all the holy mountains of the region could have been covered, and the ark could have landed on a ziggurat or some other sacred mountain of the marsh region.
Okay, yes. Maybe things could have happened that way. As long as we're discussing everything possible that could have happened, may I introduce you to my Robot Monkey Flood Hypothesis, as first postulated in Message 61 in the Creationist experiment to prove the possibility of Noah's ark thread?
quote:
1. Noah did not actually have to do most of the labor building the Ark. Robot monkeys are easily programmed to do basic construction work.
2. Likewise gathering all the animals two by two. Robot monkeys equipped with jet packs cound have traveled quickly around the globe to collect all necessary "kinds."
3. Robot monkeys doen't need to sleep, so they can take care of all the animals around the clock.
4. Robot monkeys can also use their jet packs to fly out to all the floating vegetation mats to tend to insects too.
5. If the Ark were also equipped with a Matter-Antimatter Transmutation Fabricator (which the Robot Monkeys would also be able to build), then it would be easy to recycle waste matter back into fresh, nutritious food.
6. Radiation leakage from a broken Robot Monkey Atomic Power Pack could also have affected atomic decay rates around the globe, rendering all radiometric dating techniques invalid. This indicates to me that at least one Robot Monkey did not survive the whole voyage.
7. Robot Monkeys could also have a combined data storage capacity big enough to contain all the information they'd need to retrain young animals that were raised on the Ark to return to life in the wild.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that there weren't any robot monkeys, so I consider the fact that there could have been robot monkeys to be just as convincing at three-story high gopher wood boats that were really made out of reeds carrying every animal that breathes on board, which really only means those living in the immediate area of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, in order to survive a worldwide flood that really only affected certain selected parts of the Near East, ending up on the top of a mountain that was really a Babylonian pyramid, while leaving no physical evidence that any of this actually happened.
I find the robot monkeys much more likely.

I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
What's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a new puppy? The puppy eventually grows up and quits whining.
-Steven Dutch

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by greentwiga, posted 05-29-2010 2:25 AM greentwiga has not replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3516 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 58 of 100 (562500)
05-29-2010 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by DrJones*
05-29-2010 2:19 AM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
The Times & The Sunday Times
Defences again proved inadequate when another cyclone struck on April 29, 1991, with winds reaching 140mph during a high tide, producing a storm surge as much as seven metres high. More than 130,000 people were killed.
Megatsunami - Wikipedia
A megatsunami is meant to refer to a tsunami with an initial wave amplitude (wave height) measured in several tens, hundreds, or possibly thousands of meters.
Megatsunamis can be caused by giant landslides and asteroid impacts. Underwater earthquakes do not normally generate such large tsunamis, but landslides next to bodies of water resulting from earthquakes do, since they cause a massive amount of displacement.
The recently discovered undersea Burckle Crater located at the bottom of the Indian Ocean would have caused a megatsunami at the time of impact estimated to be c. 3,000—2,800 BC.
http://ioc3.unesco.org/itic/contents.php?id=22
Banda Aceh, Indonesia, 26 December 2004. (picture of boat on building)
Runup can often be inferred from the vertical extent of dead vegetation, from debris normally found at ground level that are observed stuck on electric wires, in trees, or at other heights, and from water line marks left on building walls. In extreme cases, cars, boats, and other heavy objects have been lifted and deposited atop buildings. Banda Aceh, Indonesia, 26 December 2004. Photo courtesy of C. Courtney, Tetra Tech EMI.
For more technical math see;
Tsunami: the underrated hazard
By Edward Bryant
A Megatsunami on superflat treeless land could go 100 km inland, and even more if it forms a bore on a river. Successive tsunami waves penetrate farther because of the water left by the previous wave. A similar event can occur if the land is in flood before the tsunami occurs
Edited by greentwiga, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by DrJones*, posted 05-29-2010 2:19 AM DrJones* has replied

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 59 of 100 (562501)
05-29-2010 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by greentwiga
05-29-2010 10:06 AM


Re: A flood of flood mythes.
Ok, there are many issues I have with this whole premise of a tsunamai causing the "great" flood, but my main one is this.
Didn't you recently state that this supposed flood you are postulating could have easily lasted a year?
So a tsunamai comes up the tigris and euphrates rivers floods the whole area and lasts over one year? Interesting. Wild and fanciful, but interesting in a nutball sort of way.
It is truly amazing the contortions you are willing to go through in order to justify belief.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by greentwiga, posted 05-29-2010 10:06 AM greentwiga has not replied

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


(1)
Message 60 of 100 (562504)
05-29-2010 10:38 AM


This thread has taken a few twists and turns in it's lifespan. I guess I'd like to address those here who appear to "believe" that the flood did occur, but that it was not global.
I suppose that would be all of two people I think....greentwiga and Iblis. If you are an atheist and don't believe the bible at all, then my post will have little relevance other then then "please provide proof or evidence that the bible is true". I'm not going to discuss that right now.
I would like to address the issue for those Christians here who do not believe it was a global flood. Why? A clear reading of Genesis and the NT apostle Paul all indicate that this was a global flood.
Just one small point I'll make and I'll address your other evidences to this as you post them: If, as Genesis states, God gave Noah 120 years to prepare a monstrous "boat" for this event, did Noah waste is time doing so??? Wouldn't the average man of any sort of intelligence just gathered his belongings and walked away, like to Asia or somewhere, instead of building a boat to float around on during a localized flood????
Edited by Flyer75, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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