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Author Topic:   Is God Evil?
Evlreala
Member (Idle past 3076 days)
Posts: 88
From: Portland, OR United States of America
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 91 of 179 (533301)
10-29-2009 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by purpledawn
10-29-2009 10:07 PM


Re: Good and Evil
Darlin', there were no games being played. You were just wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by purpledawn, posted 10-29-2009 10:07 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 179 (533388)
10-30-2009 2:10 PM


Steering back on course
Is God evil? Well, that has to assume so much.
Evil is subjective, unless of course we are talking about an omnipotent God who deals out moral absolutes. Then one has to question whether or not God breaks his own commandments, which then has to assume whether or not the bible is infallible. On and on it goes.
These questions still linger because philosophically there is no end in sight. One question simply introduces another variable so that it invariably and perpetually becomes insufficiently answered.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

  
Wotak
Junior Member (Idle past 5255 days)
Posts: 13
From: Detroit, MI
Joined: 10-25-2009


Message 93 of 179 (533442)
10-30-2009 6:10 PM


Well, this little thread seems to have run itself to completion, quite as I had expected it would. Reading through the above posts I see convincing arguments from both sides although the arguments taken by the 'not evil' camp seem pretty apologetic while the 'evil' camp seems pretty solid in presenting a valid argument that God is indeed an evil entity.
The only party that we haven't heard from during this entire discussion seems to be God himself. I have, therefore, taken the liberty of digging up as many quotes as I could from God pertaining to evil. Here is God himself speaking of evil:
Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
So here, God admits that he is the creator of evil. It is my opinion and the opinion of common sense that a non-evil entity would not create evil.
Exodus 32:14 - And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
For an all knowing being, God sure does second think himself a lot. Why would the creator of evil, which must be good because all of God's creations are good (his words, not mine), be repentant about anything?
Joshua 23:15 - Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things.
shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things
LORD bring upon you all evil things
all evil things
Judges 9:23 - Then God sent an evil spirit
God himself created and then sent forth an evil spirit. This doesn't sound like something a non-evil being would do.
1 Samuel 16:14 - But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
The evil spirit from the LORD... He seems to throw around evil spirits like t-shirts at a football game.
2 Samuel 12:11 - Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house
Not only will he create some evil just for you but he'll do it within your own house. Evil house calls? Sounds like an extra dedicated evil being to me.
1 Kings 9:9 - ...therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.
It's like he's trying to put Satan out of work or something.
1 Kings 14:10 - "Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam"
In layman's terms: "Watch me throw a bunch of evil on this guy and his family just to prove to you that I can do it."
2 Kings 6:33 - ...Behold, this evil is of the LORD;
Well, he is the creator of all things, so yeah, it would be his evil.
2 Kings 21:12 - Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.
Surely this must be some extra special evil to make your ears tingle while simply being told about it. Not only does he seem to be an extremely evil being, he's also quite the creative one, no?
2 Kings 22:16 - Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place
There he goes again, showing off his evil and throwing it around like a frisbee in order to get his point across.
2 Chronicles 34:24 - Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof...
...and again. He seems to really like an audience when he bringing that evil, doesn't he?
Jeremiah 4:6 - Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.
The creator of evil bringing great destruction? You don't say...
Jeremiah 6:19 - Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people
Playing to the crowd again. It's like an evil-a-thon Broadway production.
Jeremiah 11:11 - Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them
I'm starting to see a pattern here...
Jeremiah 25:29 - For, lo, I begin to bring evil
Hmm...
Jeremiah 35:17 - Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them.
Yes. Yes indeed. There is a faint pattern developing...
Jeremiah 44:2 - Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah
Now he bragging about the evil and making sure everyone that didn't see it knows that he did it. Nice.
Jeremiah 45:5 - ...behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD.
all flesh... wow. Nobody get's a pardon. Even the devoutly faithful get an evil sandwich. Who in their right mind would worship such a horrible being?
Jeremiah 49:37 - ...I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the LORD; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them.
Still bringing that evil and anger. It's almost like watching an abusive, alcoholic husband and father come home from the bar in a bad mood. Unbelievable.
Micah 1:12 - ...evil came down from the LORD
You don't say...
Micah 2:3 - Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil
You see, this family get's a custom made evil presented to them by the LORD himself. What's not to love about this fellow?
Ezekiel 20:25-26 - Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.
That has got to be the most evil thing I have ever read. He gave them rules to follow so that they could prove their loyalty. They then dutifully followed them... but it was just a trick to drown them in evil... all just to prove he was God? WTF is that all about? "Ha ha, suckers, I fooled you!"
I'm sorry people but the evidence is in. This is an evil entity. Of this there is absolutely no doubt.

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 94 of 179 (533447)
10-30-2009 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Evlreala
10-29-2009 4:56 PM


Evlreala writes:
Regarding the "spirit of the law", foundationaly, I agree...
...but in degrees.
Understood. Which returns us to the case in point: righteous killings vs. unrighteous killings. And on what basis God killing could be considered unrighteous .. given the (emotive) tendency to shout "genocide" around here.
Surely the question: righteous vs. unrighteous need be answered first?
-
To this I would have to address your views on the nature of God. If the nature of "good" is tied with God, then a clear idea, or conceptual explaination of God (in context with the issue of "good") should be a reasonable place to make connections.
I'm not sure what it is you're asking (in the light of what I have said ). Clearly God has some or other nature - which has been labelled 'X' for the sake of objectivy. We've agreed there's little point in trying to nail down 'good' and 'morality' because they are too slippery.
We could perhaps talk about things such as patience and kindness and generosity (things which are X) and things such a selfishness, spite, envy (which are notX)
-
What makes you think God is the source of "good" in us?
Utilising the notions:
good = Gods will (= X)
evil = contra Gods will (= notX).
God expresses his will regarding our behaviour in terms of law (whether written down or delivered to us via conscience). And we experience his express will as a force of sorts - restrained by our conscience from doing evil or compelled by our conscience unto doing good. Restraint/compulsion are both forces exerted. By God.
So if good is done, God is the force behind it.
-
I'll agree X = X.
What I disagree on is;
if God then X
God
Therefore X
If, for the sake of the argument I accept the second premise as true, I wouldn't accept the first premise without a more conclusive explaination. Unless I misunderstood the argument, it isnt a valid argument.
I'm not sure what you're asking. Perhaps something I've said would clarify things for you? Or perhaps you could spell your query out for me a little more?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 95 of 179 (533475)
10-31-2009 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Wotak
10-30-2009 6:10 PM


Word of God
It must be cozy sitting on the sidelines and not engaging in the discussion.
I'm going to approach this from a different angle.
For the sake of discussion, you made the assumption that God exists, which means then and now.
For the sake of discussion, you made the assumption that the Bible is the word of God.
You did not make the assumption that God is all knowing, all powerful, or that the Bible is inerrant or all factual.
Natural disasters can be considered evil.
The Psychology of Evil
First, there are the cosmic, supernatural, transpersonal, or natural evils like floods, famine, fire, drought, disease, earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, and harmful, unforeseeable accidents that wreak untimely death havoc, and unmentionable suffering on humanity.
The Flood story and the Exodus story are foundational myths.
The most of your verses that supposedly show the evilness of God are if-and-then verses. If one does or doesn't do such and such, then God will do such and such. Show me that God carried out the threats. The people supposedly knew what was expected of them and what the consequences were. A theocracy.
In Jeremiah 19 the Israelites were supposedly burning their sons in offering to Baal. Not at God's command, btw. They were already a morally reprehensible bunch by our standards.
quote:
So here, God admits that he is the creator of evil. It is my opinion and the opinion of common sense that a non-evil entity would not create evil.
In Isaiah 45:7, God basically says he created all things whether good or bad. Evil is not a thing to be created and common sense can't have an opinion. Remember parts of Isaiah are written poetically.
Please show evidence of the non-evil entity you speak of or show that any of the gods were non-evil by our standards.
quote:
Joshua 23:15 - Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things.
Good grief! Joshua is talking, not God. If and then.
"Now I (Joshua) am about to go the way of all the earth. You know with all your heart and soul that not one of all the good promises the Lord your God gave you has failed. Every promise has been fulfilled; not one has failed. But just as every good promise of the Lord you God has come true, so the Lord will bring on you all the evil he has threatened, until he has destroyed you from this good land he has given you. If you violate the covenant of the Lord you God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, the Lord's anger will burn against you...
quote:
God himself created and then sent forth an evil spirit. This doesn't sound like something a non-evil being would do.
In Judges 23:15, the narrator is speaking, not God. IOW, the author is saying that God put enmity between Abimelech and the citizens of Shechem. Read the story. It doesn't say God created an evil spirit.
quote:
The evil spirit from the LORD... He seems to throw around evil spirits like t-shirts at a football game.
1 Samuel 16:14 again is the narrator speaking, not God. Show me that the evil spirit refers to something worse than a bad mood. Notice in the story the servants are trying to brighten Saul's mood.
Saul's attendants said to him. "See, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the harp. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes upon you, and you will feel better."
quote:
Not only will he create some evil just for you but he'll do it within your own house. Evil house calls? Sounds like an extra dedicated evil being to me.
2 Samuel 12:11 is a specific punishment for David, not a general command. This concerns David's punishment for killing Uriah. The word translated as evil in some translations is not the word "ra" as in the earlier verses. More translations use the word trouble or calamity than evil.
It's obvious you're not reading the stories, but searching for the word evil.
Show me that the words translated as evil in Bible are always a 1:1 match for our word evil.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Wotak, posted 10-30-2009 6:10 PM Wotak has not replied

  
Wotak
Junior Member (Idle past 5255 days)
Posts: 13
From: Detroit, MI
Joined: 10-25-2009


Message 96 of 179 (533499)
10-31-2009 10:41 AM


If the assumption is that the Bible is the word of God, then the words in the Bible are God's words, not some unknown narrator's. God is the narrator. It is his his story presented to us exactly as he chose to present it to us.
I sit on the sidelines and watch the discussion for exactly this reason. I'm not interested in discussing what the definition of the word 'is' is. I'm not interested in the detour signs that the blind faithful like to toss into discussions such as these. I have asked a simple question and I'm looking for a simple answer; yes or no.
If I have posted a quote that you feel is not the word of God, please toss it out. The Lord knows that Christians have little trouble tossing out parts of the Bible while clinging white-knuckled to others, anyway, right? I mean, the 10 commandments were written in stone but the great flood is just a fable... how forward thinking of Christians to continuously edit their interpretations of the infallible word of God the creator in order to escape the corners his book paints them into...
The answer to the question is either yes or no: Is God Evil?
Or, feel free to keep spinning if you must.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 98 by iano, posted 11-01-2009 1:53 AM Wotak has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 97 of 179 (533519)
10-31-2009 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Wotak
10-31-2009 10:41 AM


Debate Board
This is a debate board, not a polling booth.
ABE: Also notice the reply button at the bottom right of each post.
Using that button lets participants know who you are responding to and let's the person you're responding to know you have posted a reply.
Thanks
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : ABE

Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


(1)
Message 98 of 179 (533558)
11-01-2009 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Wotak
10-31-2009 10:41 AM


Wotak writes:
If the assumption is that the Bible is the word of God, then the words in the Bible are God's words, not some unknown narrator's. God is the narrator. It is his his story presented to us exactly as he chose to present it to us.
Loose. but close enough.
-
I sit on the sidelines and watch the discussion for exactly this reason. I'm not interested in discussing what the definition of the word 'is' is. I'm not interested in the detour signs that the blind faithful like to toss into discussions such as these. I have asked a simple question and I'm looking for a simple answer; yes or no.
You haven't asked a simple question. And the surest sign of a poor/desperate debater is their demanding 'simple' yes/no answers. But seeing as you insist :
Given the problems folk are having coming up with a basis for declaring God killing people unrighteous/evi/wrong, we'd have to conclude their jury still out. But if your post were to represent a time limit for discusson and this particular court operates on the basis of innocent until proven guilty .. then the simple answer would have to be, no: God is not evil.
-
If I have posted a quote that you feel is not the word of God, please toss it out. The Lord knows that Christians have little trouble tossing out parts of the Bible while clinging white-knuckled to others, anyway, right? I mean, the 10 commandments were written in stone but the great flood is just a fable... how forward thinking of Christians to continuously edit their interpretations of the infallible word of God the creator in order to escape the corners his book paints them into..
I'm operating on the basis of the flood having occurred. I also happen to head the post count in this thread. And am a Christian.
You haven't entered the debate in order to be painted into a corner .. on this posts showing, you're probably wise not to.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 99 of 179 (533657)
11-02-2009 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Wotak
10-30-2009 6:10 PM


Wotak writes:
Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
So here, God admits that he is the creator of evil. It is my opinion and the opinion of common sense that a non-evil entity would not create evil.
except that evil isnt an intrinsic part of ones being...its an act
You perform evil, you cannot be evil
Its like hate...a person cannot be hate...they can however, hate.
Wotak writes:
Exodus 32:14 - And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. -->
For an all knowing being, God sure does second think himself a lot. Why would the creator of evil, which must be good because all of God's creations are good (his words, not mine), be repentant about anything?
again because evil is an act performed
In the Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary the term evil is said to designate not only moral badness or offense; wrongdoing; wickedness, but also anything impairing happiness or welfare or depriving of good; injury; disaster
can God impair the happiness? Yes ie he allowed Isreal to suffer imprisonment at the hands of their enemies.
Can God bring disaster? Yes ie flood in Noahs day
Can God cause injury? Yes ie plagues upon the egyptions
So evil is something that God can create or do just as you or I can create or do it. It doesnt mean that God IS evil.
Wotak writes:
-->Ezekiel 20:25-26 - Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD. -->
That has got to be the most evil thing I have ever read. He gave them rules to follow so that they could prove their loyalty. They then dutifully followed them... but it was just a trick to drown them in evil... all just to prove he was God? WTF is that all about? "Ha ha, suckers, I fooled you!"
I just want to point out that you have this passage of scripture backward. In Ezekiel 20, the Prophet condemns the nation of Isreal for following the pagan custom of burning their firstborns in the fire. This was a cannanite religious custom that God had forbidden the isrealites to do. The scripture you posted is pointing out that the nation became defiled because they had begun to do the very things that God had fobidden them.
quote:
EZ 20:30Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: In the way of YOUR forefathers are YOU people defiling yourselves, and after their disgusting things are YOU going in immoral intercourse? 31And in lifting up YOUR gifts by making YOUR sons pass through the fire, are YOU defiling yourselves for all YOUR dungy idols down till today? At the same time shall I myself be inquired of by YOU people, O house of Israel?’ ‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘I will not be inquired of by YOU. 32And that which is coming up into YOUR spirit will itself positively not happen, in that YOU are saying: Let us become like the nations, like the families of the lands, in ministering to wood and stone.’ 33‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘it will be with a strong hand and with a stretched-out arm and with outpoured rage that I will rule as king over YOU people
This is strong denunciation by God for the evil deeds that the Isrealites were doing...he certainly wasnt praising them for it. He condemend their actions.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Wotak, posted 10-30-2009 6:10 PM Wotak has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Larni, posted 11-02-2009 6:22 AM Peg has replied
 Message 102 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-02-2009 9:30 AM Peg has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 100 of 179 (533659)
11-02-2009 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Peg
11-02-2009 6:04 AM


This is strong denunciation by God for the evil deeds that the Isrealites were doing...he certainly wasnt praising them for it. He condemend their actions.
I think the point is that your god has done some very evil things and no amount of balancing things out will make up for the misery and torment he has made happen.
It's like Stalin being let off for all those murders because he saved a few of his cronies from being shot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Peg, posted 11-02-2009 6:04 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Peg, posted 11-02-2009 8:40 AM Larni has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 101 of 179 (533673)
11-02-2009 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Larni
11-02-2009 6:22 AM


Larni writes:
I think the point is that your god has done some very evil things and no amount of balancing things out will make up for the misery and torment he has made happen.
no, the scripture in Ezekeil was just used to somehow prove that God committed the evil deed of having the Isrealites sacrifice their children to him in a fire
Ezekeil is in fact Gods condemnation of the Isrealites for doing so.
The scripture was misapplied and therefore the claim made that God performed the evil is completely false and misleading.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Larni, posted 11-02-2009 6:22 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Larni, posted 11-02-2009 10:08 AM Peg has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 179 (533678)
11-02-2009 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Peg
11-02-2009 6:04 AM


except that evil isnt an intrinsic part of ones being...its an act
You perform evil, you cannot be evil
Either way "evil" is allegedly the very antithtesis of what God is, yet there are numerous verses that explicitly state that God creates evil, God brings upon people evil, God allows evil, God commands evil, etc.
How do you reconcile that?
again because evil is an act performed
In the Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary the term evil is said to designate not only moral badness or offense; wrongdoing; wickedness, but also anything impairing happiness or welfare or depriving of good; injury; disaster
So if evil is moral badness, yet elsewhere it states that God is incapable of sin, there obviously is a contradiction. If the bible is infallible then the contradiction cannot be explained away.
You then cannot occupy both positions. You have to give up one position. Either the bible is not infallible or the bible is contradictory.
So evil is something that God can create or do just as you or I can create or do it. It doesnt mean that God IS evil.
1st John 3:9 states that nobody can sin as long as God abides in him because God cannot sin, and you quoted the dictionary stating that evil is "moral badness" (sin), so that is in direct contradiction. How do you reconcile that?

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Peg, posted 11-02-2009 6:04 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Peg, posted 11-02-2009 5:27 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 103 of 179 (533679)
11-02-2009 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Peg
11-02-2009 8:40 AM


But the point is...
The point is that your Yahweh created and allows evil to exist.
He even punished Job to prove an egotistical point to Satan.
I dare say he sent Satan to tease Jesus in the wilderness, too.
Yahweh? Loki, more like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Peg, posted 11-02-2009 8:40 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by iano, posted 11-02-2009 10:50 AM Larni has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 104 of 179 (533681)
11-02-2009 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Larni
11-02-2009 10:08 AM


Re: But the point is...
Larni writes:
I dare say he sent Satan to tease Jesus in the wilderness, too.
Permitted would probably be a more accurate way to state it. Just as he permitted the serpent to tempt Eve.
How on earth you suppose the ability to choose - without a choice presented to you - is beyond me. And if evil is something we can choose for then it stands to reason evil is something we need to be presented with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Larni, posted 11-02-2009 10:08 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Larni, posted 11-02-2009 1:00 PM iano has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 105 of 179 (533704)
11-02-2009 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by iano
11-02-2009 10:50 AM


Re: But the point is...
That makes no sense.
First: lets not get bogged down with us having free will.
Second: We are talking about Yahweh doing evil things to people for his own reasons when he does not have to (what with being all powerful and all).
Any way.
Yahweh permitting evil is just as evil as if I permit my next door neighbour to burn down the local orphanage.
Yahweh could give people the choice of being evil and refrain from doing it himself because he is better than us!
ABE: Nice pic: is that you there?
Edited by Larni, : abe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by iano, posted 11-02-2009 10:50 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by iano, posted 11-02-2009 5:09 PM Larni has replied
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