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Author Topic:   Is God Evil?
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 106 of 179 (533757)
11-02-2009 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Larni
11-02-2009 1:00 PM


Re: But the point is...
Larni writes:
That makes no sense.
First: lets not get bogged down with us having free will.
That's one way to avoid it making sense..
-
Second: We are talking about Yahweh doing evil things to people for his own reasons when he does not have to (what with being all powerful and all).
What evil thing is God supposed to have done (permitting for a moment that permitting evil because of free will... oops!)
-
Yahweh permitting evil is just as evil as if I permit my next door neighbour to burn down the local orphanage.
Yahweh not permitting evil eliminates free ...oops!
-
Yahweh could give people the choice of being evil and refrain from doing it himself because he is better than us!
This supposes free will by virtue of Gods permitting evil (contra to every point made thus far in this post). So far so good. All that remains is the evil God has supposed to have carried out. What, specifically was this evil?
-
ABE: Nice pic: is that you there?
Yes, thanks. Just married. Freely at that too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Larni, posted 11-02-2009 1:00 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Larni, posted 11-03-2009 5:06 AM iano has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 107 of 179 (533760)
11-02-2009 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Hyroglyphx
11-02-2009 9:30 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:
Either way "evil" is allegedly the very antithtesis of what God is, yet there are numerous verses that explicitly state that God creates evil
Yes he does and the bible referres to God as the Creator of evil or calamity. (Isa 45:7) For instance, when he enforced the penalty for sin, he imposed an evil, or a calamity, on mankind.
But its important to realise that evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing. Examples of evils or calamities created by Jehovah are the Flood of Noah’s day and the Ten Plagues on Egypt the destruction of the cities of Sodomm & Gomorrah. These evils were not wrongs. They were the administration of justice against wrongdoers.
So sometimes evil is necessary. What makes evil morally wrong is when evil is created without justification. And God has never brought evil about without justification.
Hyroglyphx writes:
So if evil is moral badness, yet elsewhere it states that God is incapable of sin, there obviously is a contradiction. If the bible is infallible then the contradiction cannot be explained away.
You then cannot occupy both positions. You have to give up one position. Either the bible is not infallible or the bible is contradictory.
evil can be morally bad i'll agree, but it all depends on the context. Would you say that America's decision to kill Sadam Hussain was Morally evil? I'm sure you wouldnt because you would know that it was an act of justice upon somone who caused alot of misery for many people.
In all the instances of God creating evil, it has been for the purpose of administering justice and therefore God cannot be accused being morally bad. The evil he has used was for the purpose of removeing those acting in morally evil ways.
Hyroglyphx writes:
1st John 3:9 states that nobody can sin as long as God abides in him because God cannot sin, and you quoted the dictionary stating that evil is "moral badness" (sin), so that is in direct contradiction. How do you reconcile that?
its easily reconciled when you realise that 'context' plays a vital role in understanding right from wrong, good from evil.
Was it morally wrong to war against Hitler knowing that many people would die in the process?
the point being that evil is a necessity to bring about justice and therefore it is not always morally wrong.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-02-2009 9:30 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Wotak, posted 11-02-2009 8:43 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 110 by Larni, posted 11-03-2009 5:14 AM Peg has replied
 Message 115 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-03-2009 7:01 AM Peg has replied

  
Wotak
Junior Member (Idle past 5255 days)
Posts: 13
From: Detroit, MI
Joined: 10-25-2009


Message 108 of 179 (533791)
11-02-2009 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Peg
11-02-2009 5:27 PM


Peg writes:
...evil is a necessity to bring about justice and therefore it is not always morally wrong.
Yes, but this God we are discussing, well, he quite often throws gobs and gobs evil onto innocent children.
I'd say that just makes him just plain evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Peg, posted 11-02-2009 5:27 PM Peg has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 109 of 179 (533824)
11-03-2009 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by iano
11-02-2009 5:09 PM


Re: But the point is...
What does free will have to do with Yahweh doing good or evil?
Our capacity to have free will has nothing to do with Yahweh's capacity to commit evil acts.
Why should Yahweh's evil acts be contingent on our ability to commit evil acts?
When new born children were drowned in the Flud they were not evil and yet Yahweh committed infanticide as a direct result of his actions.
That is evil.
ABE: Congrats on the wedding, mate. I got married this May. Going anywhere nice on Honeymoon?
Edited by Larni, : Congrats

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by iano, posted 11-02-2009 5:09 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by iano, posted 11-03-2009 6:13 AM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 110 of 179 (533827)
11-03-2009 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Peg
11-02-2009 5:27 PM


They were the administration of justice against wrongdoers.
So when a child is born with AIDS they are wrong doers?
What makes evil morally wrong is when evil is created without justification.
Where is the justification for AIDS babies?
You do realise that you are now explaining away the fact that Yahweh performs evil acts? This then argues very strongly that you agree that Yahweh is at times an evil entity.
In all the instances of God creating evil, it has been for the purpose of administering justice and therefore God cannot be accused being morally bad.
AIDS babies are guilty of what now?
the point being that evil is a necessity to bring about justice and therefore it is not always morally wrong.
Not so when Yahweh can click his fingers and rearrange reality rather than kill pretty much every one on the planet durring the flud!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Peg, posted 11-02-2009 5:27 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Peg, posted 11-03-2009 5:44 AM Larni has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 111 of 179 (533832)
11-03-2009 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Larni
11-03-2009 5:14 AM


Larni writes:
So when a child is born with AIDS they are wrong doers?
you just asked iano what free will has to do with Gods bringing evil upon someone
now i'll ask you what a child born with aids has to do with this subject?
Larni writes:
Where is the justification for AIDS babies?
you'll have to ask the people who spread the virus
If you want to ask God why babies are born with Aids, he would probably remind you that we are independent of him and therefore we are not in his jurisdiction. Some people think independence from God is a good thing and they wouldnt have it any other way, i personally dont and judging by your comment, you believe that an all powerful being should be more responsible for us. I agree with you and Im pretty confident that God also agrees, however for now mankind are independent and we must live with all the problems the come from independence.
Larni writes:
You do realise that you are now explaining away the fact that Yahweh performs evil acts? This then argues very strongly that you agree that Yahweh is at times an evil entity.
no one can be an evil entity, there is no such thing
evil, as i've mentioned, is a verb. Yes God can bring evil on someone, just as you or I can...but we cannot be an 'evil' just as we cannot be a 'shout' or a 'smack' or a 'throw' etc etc
Larni writes:
Not so when Yahweh can click his fingers and rearrange reality rather than kill pretty much every one on the planet durring the flud!
for him to rearrange reality, he would need to control every living being. He does not force us to do anything, however at times he has stood up for his righteous standards and removed those who do not adopt them such as at the time of the Flood.
He did it when the badness of the cities of Soddom and Gomorrah became too great, and he did it to various nations from time to time and Yes, he will do it again to show us that his righteous standards are binding on all whether they acknowledge them or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Larni, posted 11-03-2009 5:14 AM Larni has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 112 of 179 (533835)
11-03-2009 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Larni
11-02-2009 1:00 PM


Stopping Evil
quote:
Yahweh permitting evil is just as evil as if I permit my next door neighbour to burn down the local orphanage.
If we know a person is committed to burning down a local orphanage and no amount of talking is going to stop them. What are our personal choices in stopping them?
How far is acceptable to stop potential deaths?
quote:
Yahweh could give people the choice of being evil and refrain from doing it himself because he is better than us!
Would that stop people from attributing their actions to God or blaming God?
How can we tell the difference?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Larni, posted 11-02-2009 1:00 PM Larni has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 113 of 179 (533836)
11-03-2009 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Larni
11-03-2009 5:06 AM


Re: But the point is...
Larni writes:
What does free will have to do with Yahweh doing good or evil?
Why should Yahweh's evil acts be contingent on our ability to commit evil acts?
Answering your first question: nothing that I can think of. I've gotten off at a previous stop though, the one which questions whether God does evil at all. You use the word of his actions as if it's been established his actions are evil. It hasn't been.
Clearly, God does things man finds painful, even 'evil' - which is not to say they are evil. God doing so could well be expected to be tied up with free will - if consequences are to be expected to follow our choices. Him the provider of choice, him the ultimate provider of choices consequences.
Choice without consequences being no choice at all.
-
When new born children were drowned in the Flud they were not evil and yet Yahweh committed infanticide as a direct result of his actions. That is evil.
There is a criticism levelled at creos that they are inclinded to insert God into the gaps that Science has yet to fill. The corresponding atheist gambit is to kick objections to the (hoped for) touchline of "The case of Infants and the Mentally Limited" - which gives the impression you do at least assent to the idea of God visiting wrath upon sinners of the age of conscience.
Progress indeed!
Part of the problem with viewing God is our tendency to suppose him a person like us. But whilst we derive certain characteristics of ours from him, he isn't limited to performing like us.
If you're at all familiar with the doctrine of the Trinity you'll see it makes what appears to be irreconcilable and irrational statements about the nature of God: God being three distinct personhoods, yet there isn't three gods...and the like. What's the doctrine-assemblers are doing, it seems to me, it taking clear attributes of God (as they are revealed) and listing them in summary fashion before us - without hoping to reconcile the conflicting/incomprehsible elements.
Similarily, two clear attributes of God, as ummistakably revealed, are his wrath against unholiness and his love for those self-same unholy creatures. So on the one hand God can look down on us as consider us utter vermin and would/does, in his wrath against unholiness, exterminate mankind as easily as we ourselves would a nest of disease ridden rats: infant rats, adult rats - elderly and infiorm rats. It makes no difference. On the other hand God is prepared to step down from his glory and suffer at the hands of that same vermin in order that they might be delivered from his wrath.
Whilst it might not be easy to hold both aspects of God in your hands at the same time (it's not straighforward even as a believer), you do yourself no credit to plump for the one aspect whilst ignoring the other.
-
ABE: Congrats on the wedding, mate. I got married this May. Going anywhere nice on Honeymoon?
When I said 'just married' I meant a short time. Last June as it happens. Best day of my life - bar one. For our 'oneymoon we went to France/Paris. She'll complete her Masters in Counselling Psychology this year you might be interested to know. Apparently the Lord, in assisting in my choice of wife, felt my progress along the path of sanctification (ie: being made more like Jesus) needed to be accelerated somewhat. I tell you, there's no pulling the wool over her eyes with my little 'character idiosyncracies'.
Belated congratulations yourself btw.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Larni, posted 11-03-2009 5:06 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Larni, posted 11-03-2009 6:25 AM iano has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 114 of 179 (533841)
11-03-2009 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by iano
11-03-2009 6:13 AM


Re: But the point is...
Progress indeed!
You wiley fox, you.
Whilst it might not be easy to hold both aspects of God in your hands at the same time (it's not straighforward even as a believer), you do yourself no credit to plump for the one aspect whilst ignoring the other.
I have no problem with this concept:
I'm imagining the wife beater telling his wife that he only does it because he loves her so much
And how common is it that the beaten wifes says "it's not his fault, it's my fault"?
Or "he only does it because he loves me so much"?
The husband may love his wife but he hates her as well.
I believe I'm being fair when I say this behaviour is evil.
Belated congratulations yourself btw.
Can't beat being happy, eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by iano, posted 11-03-2009 6:13 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by iano, posted 11-04-2009 2:42 PM Larni has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 179 (533844)
11-03-2009 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Peg
11-02-2009 5:27 PM


So basically what I've deduced from your reply is that if we did what God did we'd be guilty of sin (do as I say, not as I do), God is always exonerated from his own laws, and evil for God isn't really evil-evil so much as it is righteous-evil.
Basically it doesn't matter how many times God orders babies be dashed on the rocks, it's not an morally evil act its an righteous evil act in his spiritual indignation.
OR people throughout history invented God's approval so they could massacre to their hearts content with those nagging bouts of guilt.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Peg, posted 11-02-2009 5:27 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Peg, posted 11-03-2009 7:27 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 116 of 179 (533846)
11-03-2009 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Hyroglyphx
11-03-2009 7:01 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:
So basically what I've deduced from your reply is that if we did what God did we'd be guilty of sin (do as I say, not as I do), God is always exonerated from his own laws, and evil for God isn't really evil-evil so much as it is righteous-evil.
God does not transgress his own laws, he abides by them perfectly.
Any decision he makes with regard to punishment/disaster on humans is brought about by his desire for justice.
I undestand your contention about the execution of people including their children/babies. What I have come to appreciate as a parent, is that the decisions I make will affect my children. If i make a bad decision, my children my suffer as a consequence of my own actions.
this is the case with the children of people who have been executed by God. If people make themselves enemies of God, then they are making that decision for the children in their care. When a Leader of a nation goes to war with another nation, that leader puts the whole nation at risk of harm. Saddam was an example of one who refused to submit to the orders of the UN and in doing so he willingly harmed the lives of his people.
Would you blame the UN for the harm caused by food shortages and medical supply shortages...is it the UN's fault that many children died as a result of Saddams decisions?
Im sure you would not agree with that. This is the same thing that God has been faced with. When nations chose to war with him (by attaking his people) he was forced to act upon them...he was forced to bring evil upon the attakers in order to bring justice to his own people. Its a sad consequence that many children of those enemies died as a result of their parents decisions. One thing we can be absolutely certain of is what God himself says at Ezekiel 18:21, 23
Now as regards someone wicked, in case he should turn back from all his sins that he has committed and he should actually keep all my statutes and execute justice and righteousness, he will positively keep living. He will not die. Do I take any delight at all in the death of someone wicked, ... and not in that he should turn back from his ways and actually keep living?
the death of anyone is not something God enjoys or takes any delight in...he would much rather they practiced justice and righteousness. This assures us that the death of any innocent child is not what he wants and my confidence is that in the resurrection, he will bring all those who died back from the grave to enjoy a peaceful happy life on earth.
The resurrection is a sure hope even for those who did not know God or worship him...he will do this because of his justice. If the children died as a result of their parents actions, then that it is an injustice, one that God can and will justify.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-03-2009 7:01 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Larni, posted 11-03-2009 7:49 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 118 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-03-2009 9:43 AM Peg has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 117 of 179 (533849)
11-03-2009 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Peg
11-03-2009 7:27 AM


Would you blame the UN for the harm caused by food shortages and medical supply shortages...is it the UN's fault that many children died as a result of Saddams decisions?
No and that's why when we went to war with him we tried to focus on milltary targets; rather then wicked Yahweh who (in his mercy) killed the children of the 'wicked'.
This assures us that the death of any innocent child is not what he wants
If it was not what Yahweh wanted it would not happen, would it? He could use divine 'smart lightining' like we use 'smart bombs' to limit damage to non military targets.
It seems your god is more innept at minimising civilian causalties that the US or the UN (if such a thing can be imagined).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Peg, posted 11-03-2009 7:27 AM Peg has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 179 (533858)
11-03-2009 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Peg
11-03-2009 7:27 AM


God does not transgress his own laws, he abides by them perfectly.
Which is circular only because he grants himself the power. We cannot commit genocide, but he can. We cannot commit murder unless he says it is okay.
undestand your contention about the execution of people including their children/babies. What I have come to appreciate as a parent, is that the decisions I make will affect my children. If i make a bad decision, my children my suffer as a consequence of my own actions.
Which goes against God's own teaching. The one who sins will die, saith the bible. Yet it also says that sins will come upon up to the 3rd and 4th generation. Is it righteous that my infant son or daughter be pulverized on rocks because of something my great-granfather did during one of his youthful indiscretions?
people make themselves enemies of God, then they are making that decision for the children in their care. When a Leader of a nation goes to war with another nation, that leader puts the whole nation at risk of harm.
No one can help where they were born, to whom they were born, and often who is in power, like Sadam. If God punishes people for that then he's not much of God worth serving now is he?
Would you blame the UN for the harm caused by food shortages and medical supply shortages...is it the UN's fault that many children died as a result of Saddams decisions?
you can't compare the UN to God, the creator of all life, the designer of how the world works, etc. Since God is omniscient and omnipotent, he has the ability to stop it all and yet doesn't. Sure, he gave us freewill, but he also gave us the ability and the desire to sin in the first place which makes him culpable for how his progeny turns out, and then he punishes for the things he has created.
When nations chose to war with him (by attaking his people) he was forced to act upon them...he was forced to bring evil upon the attakers in order to bring justice to his own people. Its a sad consequence that many children of those enemies died
It is more than just sad, it is completely unnecessary and entirely avoidable. If God were less discreet, don't you think more people would believe in him and abide by his laws?
the death of anyone is not something God enjoys or takes any delight in
[i]"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." -- Hosea 13:16
Yes, I see what you mean. It's obviously all their fault.
It is amazing what justifications people will make for God, yet when Muslims use the same justifications for their atrocities, Christians recoil at the horror. What precisely is the difference? One's a false god and the other is the "true" living God?

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Peg, posted 11-03-2009 7:27 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Peg, posted 11-04-2009 3:24 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Wotak
Junior Member (Idle past 5255 days)
Posts: 13
From: Detroit, MI
Joined: 10-25-2009


Message 119 of 179 (533864)
11-03-2009 10:37 AM


Peg writes:
God does not transgress his own laws, he abides by them perfectly.
Either you are being dishonest or you've never read:
Deuteronomy 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; only for his own guilt shall a man be put to death.
Jeremiah 31:30 ... through his own fault only shall anyone die...
Ezekiel 18:20 Only the one who sins will die. The son shall not be charged with the sins of the father, nor shall the father be charged with the guilt of the son.
...and yet,Exodus 20:5 & Numbers 14:18 & Deuteronomy 5:9 all document that God said: I am a jealous God inflicting punishment on the children for generations for their father’s wickedness
Exodus 34:7 The sins of the father will be punished upon his future children and grandchildren to the 3rd and 4th generation for their father's wickedness.
According to the above, God is an evil liar.
Jn:8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Gen:3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
...and yet he tells us that Satan is evil because he is an evil liar.
God is evil. There is no other explanation.

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Larni, posted 11-03-2009 10:54 AM Wotak has replied
 Message 123 by purpledawn, posted 11-03-2009 1:11 PM Wotak has not replied
 Message 126 by Peg, posted 11-04-2009 2:53 AM Wotak has replied

  
Wotak
Junior Member (Idle past 5255 days)
Posts: 13
From: Detroit, MI
Joined: 10-25-2009


Message 120 of 179 (533869)
11-03-2009 10:47 AM


He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth
This single sentence describes both Satan and God, if we are to take the words within the bible literally.
Why is it that God chose to introduce and describe the Devil that he created in a manner that he could also be described?
...and if he isn't evil, why did he create Satan in the first place?
...or was that also a lie?

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Peg, posted 11-04-2009 3:36 AM Wotak has not replied
 Message 133 by purpledawn, posted 11-04-2009 8:00 AM Wotak has not replied

  
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