Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8896 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-22-2019 3:56 AM
44 online now:
CosmicChimp, Tangle (2 members, 42 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 848,541 Year: 3,578/19,786 Month: 573/1,087 Week: 163/212 Day: 5/25 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23Next
Author Topic:   Teach both evolution and creationism say 54% of Britons
Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 1 of 31 (533022)
10-28-2009 9:09 AM


Oh, for fuck sake. How can this be happening?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/...h-evolution-creationism-britons

I've long laughed at many American people from the bible belt (sometimes referred to as Dumfuckistan over here) but now it seems I must point to my own country in derision.

How ironic.

Edited by Larni, : Forgot to put the link in, d'oh!


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by mark24, posted 10-28-2009 9:28 AM Larni has not yet responded
 Message 3 by Modulous, posted 10-28-2009 9:34 AM Larni has responded
 Message 4 by Stile, posted 10-28-2009 10:19 AM Larni has not yet responded
 Message 10 by bluegenes, posted 10-28-2009 4:11 PM Larni has not yet responded
 Message 11 by Legend, posted 10-28-2009 5:57 PM Larni has not yet responded
 Message 18 by Kitsune, posted 11-02-2009 2:50 AM Larni has not yet responded

    
mark24
Member (Idle past 3271 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 2 of 31 (533027)
10-28-2009 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
10-28-2009 9:09 AM


But if they were polled the same with "even if it means teaching religion in science classes" appended, how many would still of polled the same way?

Mark

Edited by mark24, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 10-28-2009 9:09 AM Larni has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 180 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 3 of 31 (533028)
10-28-2009 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
10-28-2009 9:09 AM


While scorn is in order - the wording of the statement might have a big effect here. The statement is "Evolutionary theories should be taught in science lessons in schools together with other possible perspectives, such as intelligent design and creationism."

If it had been worded as "Evolutionary theories should be taught in science lessons in schools together with unevidenced screeds of long debunked perspectives, such as intelligent design and creationism." - I'd imagine a different response rate. A better guage might have been the statement

"Inteligent design has proven itself as a suitably evidenced scientific theory that should be taught in science class."

But hey - what do I know about good surveying


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 10-28-2009 9:09 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Larni, posted 10-28-2009 3:13 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3392
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 4 of 31 (533037)
10-28-2009 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
10-28-2009 9:09 AM


Those poor Britons
Oh, those poor Britons, always galloping around with their coconuts.

What can you expect from a scientific society that thinks it's wise to condemn a woman as a witch if she weighs the same as a duck?

Take solace in the likelihood that such a survey would come up 70-80% in favour when done over here

"What also floats in water?"
"...very small rocks?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 10-28-2009 9:09 AM Larni has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Modulous, posted 10-28-2009 10:31 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 180 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 5 of 31 (533039)
10-28-2009 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Stile
10-28-2009 10:19 AM


Re: Those poor Britons
Take solace in the likelihood that such a survey would come up 70-80% in favour when done over here

Not according to the article:

quote:

About 54% of the 973 polled Britons agreed with the view: "Evolutionary theories should be taught in science lessons in schools together with other possible perspectives, such as intelligent design and creationism."

In the US, of 991 adults responding to the survey, which was organised by the British Council, 51% agreed that evolution should be on the curriculum alongside other theories, like intelligent design.

Across the 10 countries, 43% agreed with this statement.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Stile, posted 10-28-2009 10:19 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Lithodid-Man, posted 10-28-2009 3:59 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 6 of 31 (533078)
10-28-2009 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Modulous
10-28-2009 9:34 AM


You are right, of course.

Without knowing the exact wording of the questionnaire it's hard to make a meaningful comment but the fact we polled worse than America is awful.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Modulous, posted 10-28-2009 9:34 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Perdition, posted 10-28-2009 3:17 PM Larni has not yet responded
 Message 14 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 10-29-2009 5:30 AM Larni has not yet responded

    
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1314 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 7 of 31 (533079)
10-28-2009 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Larni
10-28-2009 3:13 PM


Well, we've also had a much more vocal minority arguing for the inclusion of ID in science class, which leads to a much more vocal opposition to it. The Dover Trial perhaps acting as the clash between the two, with science and the side of right coming out on top.

It may be that more people have seen through the sheep's clothing, or it may be that more people are worried about being "outed" as an ID supporter after the trial. One of the problem's with polls is that people can be swayed by wording as well as their own psychology. There is no guarantee anyone's answering truthfully.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Larni, posted 10-28-2009 3:13 PM Larni has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 8 of 31 (533082)
10-28-2009 3:33 PM


What the census says is a bit more encouraging for us Brits.
This makes me feel a bit better, though:

In England and Wales 390,127 people (almost 0.8 percent) stated their religion as Jedi on their 2001 Census forms, surpassing Sikhism, Judaism, and Buddhism, and making it the fourth largest reported religion in the country.[12] In the 2001 Census 2.6 percent of the population of Brighton claimed to be Jedi. The percentages of religious affiliations were:

Christian: 72.0%
No religion: 14.7%
Chose not to respond: 7.8%
Muslim: 3.1%
Hindu: 1.1%
Jedi: 0.79%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

So Jedi is the 4th most common religion in UK!


    
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 1007 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 9 of 31 (533085)
10-28-2009 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Modulous
10-28-2009 10:31 AM


Re: Those poor Britons
My question on comparing the numbers from Briton and the US is what those who didn't agree would want. The comparison is hardly fair if say 30% of those in the US against teaching both sides say so because they only want creationism taught. While older this suggests that 30% for creation only is not unreasonable

Favor schools teaching creation instead of evolution:
All Americans 37%
Kerry voters 24%
Bush voters 45%

60 percent of Americans who call themselves Evangelical Christians, however, favor replacing evolution with creationism in schools altogether, as do 50 percent of those who attend religious services every week.


Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Modulous, posted 10-28-2009 10:31 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

    
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 553 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 10 of 31 (533087)
10-28-2009 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
10-28-2009 9:09 AM


Larni writes:

I've long laughed at many American people from the bible belt (sometimes referred to as Dumfuckistan over here) but now it seems I must point to my own country in derision.

Those kind of questions often get a majority which is just indicative of a liberal "teach all angles" attitude rather than any strong opinions on the issue. Ask "should time in science classes be taken up teaching non-scientific ideas" and the great majority would probably reply "no", thinking it a rather strange question with an obvious answer.

It's not the same kind of problem here as in the U.S. for other reasons. Two thirds of British teenagers do not believe in god and 59% of them think that religion does more harm than good in the world.

Article on survey here

The most recent stats I could find for the U.S. was 84% of teens believing in god in 2005.

So, creationism has a problem in this country far more profound than whether or not it's on the curriculum.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 10-28-2009 9:09 AM Larni has not yet responded

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 3082 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 11 of 31 (533094)
10-28-2009 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
10-28-2009 9:09 AM


Does anyone remember that Harry Enfield character, the German student who was always apologising for the behaviour of his people during the war? Well I feel a bit like that after reading this. Here goes:

I feel that I must apologise for the ignorance and superstition exhibited by my people in this survey. Please forgive them, for I am sure they were pissed out of their skulls when this poll was taken.


"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 10-28-2009 9:09 AM Larni has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by onifre, posted 10-28-2009 6:05 PM Legend has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1027 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 12 of 31 (533096)
10-28-2009 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Legend
10-28-2009 5:57 PM


I feel that I must apologise for the ignorance and superstition exhibited by my people in this survey. Please forgive them, for I am sure they were pissed out of their skulls when this poll was taken.

As a US citizen, I accept this apology. And if the next poll taken comes up with the same results, I will assume your people can't stop drinking when being asked these questions.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Legend, posted 10-28-2009 5:57 PM Legend has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Legend, posted 10-29-2009 5:14 AM onifre has not yet responded

    
Legend
Member (Idle past 3082 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 13 of 31 (533162)
10-29-2009 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by onifre
10-28-2009 6:05 PM


And if the next poll taken comes up with the same results, I will assume your people can't stop drinking when being asked these questions.

My people can't stop drinking. Period. Surely you don't need another poll to establish that fact!


"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by onifre, posted 10-28-2009 6:05 PM onifre has not yet responded

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 3018 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 14 of 31 (533166)
10-29-2009 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Larni
10-28-2009 3:13 PM


"Without knowing the exact wording of the questionnaire it's hard to make a meaningful comment..."

Very good point and I was hoping that someone would open a topic on this survey.

Because if you were to ask the average Briton in the street "Do you think intelligent design should be taught in schools", I'm sure at least 90% of those polled will never have heard of "intelligent design" as anything to do with God and Creation, they'll just think the questioner is asking "is it better to teach children intelligent design as opposed to unintelligent design?", which is a no-brainer!

We should never forget that the vast majority of British people care not a jot for religion, or evolution for that matter, and they have no awareness of the Evolution/Creation debate.

I'd be interested to hear from any Americans on this site if they think that the average American on the street would instantly recognise the term "intelligent design" as being anything to do with the Evolution/Creation debate.

Edited by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Larni, posted 10-28-2009 3:13 PM Larni has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by MikeDeich, posted 10-31-2009 11:17 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has responded

  
MikeDeich
Junior Member (Idle past 2635 days)
Posts: 24
From: Rosario, Argentina
Joined: 10-31-2009


Message 15 of 31 (533557)
10-31-2009 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
10-29-2009 5:30 AM


As a US citizen I would say that a good percent of people there would not recognize the meaning or significance of intelligent design. No way to know exactly at the moment, but my guess would be between 25-35%. There are people from the US who couldnt pick their own country off a map. There is true ignorance in every country of the globe. I personally couldnt care less if "alternative theories" are presented in the classroom. The fear for all of us rational people is that this allows the teaching of religion in a science class. Intelligent design can be presented without religion. A belief in a designer doesnt necessarily have to be connected with any religion. The problem is what would you do with the rest of the class period after it took less than 10 minutes to explain intelligent design without religious dogma? More evidence for evolution?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 10-29-2009 5:30 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Larni, posted 11-01-2009 8:56 AM MikeDeich has responded
 Message 20 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-02-2009 4:22 AM MikeDeich has not yet responded

  
1
23Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019