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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Really Suffer?
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 3224 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 1 of 73 (534180)
11-05-2009 2:47 PM


Throughout the years, I've heard time and time again that Jesus loves us so much that he died for our sins. He was painfully crucified and tortured on the cross, all for our sake. Any such devotion is admirable and heartwarming, no?

Needless to say, there are more than a few issues with that.

First, the issue of Jesus's pain. Every day, there are millions of people starving in poverty, almost literal ghosts of their former selves (if they were any different to begin with). Every day, millions of people die of horrible painful diseases that wrack their bodies unimaginably even after death, such as the horrific Ebola virus. Ever day, millions of people have their dreams crushed, coming to realize that what they have devoted their very life to can never be in such a cruel world. I could go on, but I won't.

The question is: Compared to all of this horrible suffering that runs rampant throughout the world today or then, was Jesus's single sacrifice even meaningful? Furthermore, even God knew that he would rise from the dead; that was his plan, no? Death with resurrection is not a suitable sacrifice. Imagine all of those dying people, some thinking that they will live on, while others doubt their consciousness's survival; in addition, whether these people go to heaven or not, they will never again exist on Earth. Next to that, Jesus's sacrifice is nothing. The only thing that could come close to the sacrifice morally justified would be Jesus taking all of our place's in Hell for all eternity, suffering everything that we would have. That would be true love, not this giving away of something that you know you'll get back in 36 hours.

Also, the sacrifice of Jesus makes no sense from a logical perspective. Simply put, why go to the lengths of being killed in order to forgive everyone? Why was it necessary for God to, effectively, commit suicide in order to be able to forgive his own people? At the very least, this implies that God is under threat from a more powerful being that controls sin, and the only way to win is to die. In addition, it makes no sense for an innocent- even God- to die for someone else's sins. That would be like a jury summoning the cousin of a convicted murderer to do the time instead, which is obviously unjust. An objection could arise that the cousin could willfully go to prison to protect his cousin; however, this action does not stop the murderer from continuing to commit crimes and is thus ineffectual.

So, my question is this: How can Jesus's sacrifice be regarded as the ultimate price and gift to humanity if there are so many today who suffer much worse and gain nothing from it? In addition, how, from a logical and lawful perspective, does Jesus's substitution make sense?

T&U

Edited by Teapots&unicorns, : No reason given.

Edited by Teapots&unicorns, : Grammar


“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
- Stephen Roberts

“I'm a polyatheist - there are many gods I don't believe in”
- Dan Foutes

"In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has widely been considered as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPD, posted 11-05-2009 5:41 PM Teapots&unicorns has responded
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 Message 53 by Pauline, posted 11-24-2009 5:51 AM Teapots&unicorns has responded

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 73 (534201)
11-05-2009 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Teapots&unicorns
11-05-2009 2:47 PM


Needs Clarification
quote:
So, my question is this: How do you reconcile your belief in Jesus's sacrifice with today's greater suffering; and how does his death for your crimes make any sense?
I understand the questions you're asking concerning Christian dogma, but I don't see that your OP explains the point in the comparison. IOW, why does belief in Jesus's sacrifice need to be reconciled or compared with anyone else's suffering to have meaning to Christians?

I think there needs to be something in the OP that explains/supports what one has to do with the other.

Respond to this post after you edit the OP or if you have questions.

Thanks
AdminPD


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-05-2009 2:47 PM Teapots&unicorns has responded

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Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 3224 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 3 of 73 (534205)
11-05-2009 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPD
11-05-2009 5:41 PM


Re: Needs Clarification
Thanks.

Check my edit. I hope it's ok.

T&U


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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 4 of 73 (534211)
11-05-2009 8:32 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Did Jesus Really Suffer? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3266 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 5 of 73 (534343)
11-07-2009 12:06 AM


Teapots writes:

How can Jesus's sacrifice be regarded as the ultimate price and gift to humanity if there are so many today who suffer much worse and gain nothing from it? In addition, how, from a logical and lawful perspective, does Jesus's substitution make sense?

to understand Jesus sacrifice, you have to understand why it was needed.

It all comes back to two things
1. Adam & Eve
2. Satan the devil.

Satan challened Gods rulership and accused humans of being incapable of maintaining loyalty to God. Satans first attempt to prove his claim was by turning Adam & Eve against God. He was successful, he turned them away from God and they had to suffer the consequences of sin and death...the result is that all their children were born into the same condition through no fault of their own and because of this God fortold the coming of a 'Seed' or a person who would put the issue to rest and prove satans accusation as false and give Adam and Eves children the prospect of getting out of this condition
.
Genesis 3:15 "And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel."

This is a first prophecy regarding the 'Seed' who was to come and give his life as a sacrifice. This 'seed' is the Messiah, Jesus Christ and his role was to prove Satans claim false and give the children of A&E an opportunity to live the life that they lost.

When Jesus was killed, he maintained perfect integrity to God and therefore was able to prove Satans claim false. It also became the legal basis for which God would forgive sin and redeem mankind.

In the near future, Jesus will assume his role as the King of Gods Kingdom and lead mankind back to perfection. The earth will be goverened by Jesus as Gods spokesman and we will have opportunity to learn perfection. Daniel 2:44 tells us that the 'God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms"
This period of time will be the 1000 year millenial reign, so there will be plenty of time to return to the condition A&E lost.

So in conclusion, Yes Jesus did suffer and yes it was beneficial to mankind. Without his faithful course, we would have no hope of getting out of the terrible condidtion we are in. Sickness, death, war, enviromental pollution/destruction and cruel rulership by corrupt and domineering people.

Under chists rulership we will have freedom from all of this... its all thanks to his sacrifice.


Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by hooah212002, posted 11-07-2009 1:35 AM Peg has responded
 Message 13 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-07-2009 8:27 PM Peg has responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 159 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 6 of 73 (534348)
11-07-2009 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
11-07-2009 12:06 AM


Peg writes:

This is a first prophecy regarding the 'Seed' who was to come and give his life as a sacrifice. This 'seed' is the Messiah, Jesus Christ and his role was to prove Satans claim false and give the children of A&E an opportunity to live the life that they lost.

Genesis 3:14-15 writes:

And Jehovah God saith unto the serpent, `Because thou hast done this, cursed [art] thou above all the cattle, and above every beast of the field: on thy belly dost thou go, and dust thou dost eat, all days of thy life;

15and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.'

No, quite not. That is some serious straining to pull a different meaning from that verse, peg. It looks as though it means there will be anymosity between the seed of A&E and of the serpant. This has diddly to do with any prophecy of jesus.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Peg, posted 11-07-2009 12:06 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Peg, posted 11-07-2009 1:43 AM hooah212002 has responded
 Message 10 by cavediver, posted 11-07-2009 8:28 AM hooah212002 has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3266 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 7 of 73 (534350)
11-07-2009 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by hooah212002
11-07-2009 1:35 AM


hooah212002 writes:

No, quite not. That is some serious straining to pull a different meaning from that verse, peg. It looks as though it means there will be anymosity between the seed of A&E and of the serpant. This has diddly to do with any prophecy of jesus.

really?

explain why you think so


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by hooah212002, posted 11-07-2009 1:35 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by hooah212002, posted 11-07-2009 2:00 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 159 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 8 of 73 (534352)
11-07-2009 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Peg
11-07-2009 1:43 AM


explain why you think so

I understand the English language......

I don't know how to make it more clear than putting the verse in front of you. There isn't the slightest inuendo of any "future messiah" anywhere. This is strictly speaking of the serpant and A&E.

unless you want to say verse 15 is completely eperate from verse 14????

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Peg, posted 11-07-2009 1:43 AM Peg has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 9 of 73 (534353)
11-07-2009 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by hooah212002
11-07-2009 2:00 AM


Restraint
Much as I like the plain text, as the OP is written this discussion isn't about reconciling dogma with the plain text of the Bible.

Please try to keep within the spirit of the OP.

Thanks
AdminPD


Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

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 Message 8 by hooah212002, posted 11-07-2009 2:00 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1980 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 10 of 73 (534367)
11-07-2009 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by hooah212002
11-07-2009 1:35 AM


Just as an aside, it was finally appreciating that the extremely well-establishedand and blatently obvious 'first messianic prophecy' of Genesis 3:15 was actually complete bullshit, that began my journey towards leaving 20+ years of evangelical christianity

What finally enabled me to leave Christianity for good was the great phrase: Jesus gave up his weekend for my sins. Saw it here at EvC but can't remember who said it. Christian dogma depends upon a multitude of bizarre, limiting, and blatently contradictory characteristics it bestows upon a supposedly omnipotent and omniscient diety - it starts with 'holiness' and goes seriously downhill from there. It reminds me of a typical Escher painting - looks like a cohesive whole from a distance, looks perfectly sensible when any single element is examined. But when you focus on its interconnectedness, you realise the whole thing is nonsense

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by hooah212002, posted 11-07-2009 1:35 AM hooah212002 has responded

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 159 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 11 of 73 (534403)
11-07-2009 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by cavediver
11-07-2009 8:28 AM


Just as an aside, it was finally appreciating that the extremely well-establishedand and blatently obvious 'first messianic prophecy' of Genesis 3:15 was actually complete bullshit, that began my journey towards leaving 20+ years of evangelical christianity.

Wait a cotton pickin' minute: you mean that it is a well established "prophecy" and not just peg making shit up? Does the english language fail horribly? I mean, I admit I don't understand hebrew so maybe the original text said something completely different, but did the transcribers get it wrong or something?

/baffled


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by cavediver, posted 11-07-2009 8:28 AM cavediver has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5866
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 12 of 73 (534407)
11-07-2009 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Teapots&unicorns
11-05-2009 2:47 PM


The question is: Compared to all of this horrible suffering that runs rampant throughout the world today or then, was Jesus's single sacrifice even meaningful? Furthermore, even God knew that he would rise from the dead; that was his plan, no?

It does smack of self-righteousness. You also forgot to mention that thousands upon thousands of people were crucified by the Romans before, during, and after the time of Jesus in exactly the same manner.

It is also questionable how meaningful God immolating himself really would be given that he's, well, God.

Also, the sacrifice of Jesus makes no sense from a logical perspective. Simply put, why go to the lengths of being killed in order to forgive everyone? Why was it necessary for God to, effectively, commit suicide in order to be able to forgive his own people?

As the hermeneutics of the crucifixion story goes, it is generally said that per the Word of God, God by his perfect nature cannot overlook sin without some sort of atonement. By Jesus dying on the cross, it was supposed to have a couple of different functions.

1. To become the atonement and absolution for everyone's sins, so long as they accept the offering.

2. To become the ultimate sacrifice that would render all lesser sacrifices (burnt offerings and whatnot) moot and ineffectual.

In addition, it makes no sense for an innocent- even God- to die for someone else's sins. That would be like a jury summoning the cousin of a convicted murderer to do the time instead, which is obviously unjust.

Again, as far as the biblical interpretation goes, only Jesus could have accomplished sin offering because he was allegedly morally perfect. He became the ultimate Lamb without blot or defect.

To really understand the inner meanings of it, you have to first acquaint yourself with the Tanakh to understand the symbolism.

So, my question is this: How can Jesus's sacrifice be regarded as the ultimate price and gift to humanity if there are so many today who suffer much worse and gain nothing from it?

It's supposedly about not suffering in hell, not the amount you suffer in the temporal, physical realm.


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-05-2009 2:47 PM Teapots&unicorns has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5866
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 13 of 73 (534408)
11-07-2009 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
11-07-2009 12:06 AM


the result is that all their children were born into the same condition through no fault of their own

Paying for the sins of the father.

This is a first prophecy regarding the 'Seed' who was to come and give his life as a sacrifice. This 'seed' is the Messiah, Jesus Christ and his role was to prove Satans claim false and give the children of A&E an opportunity to live the life that they lost.

The verse is fat to ambiguous to conclusively draw any kind of reasonable comparison, though I agree that it is common to do so.

When Jesus was killed, he maintained perfect integrity to God and therefore was able to prove Satans claim false.

How was God able to tell his story to Moses (or whomever wrote Genesis) that God and Satan had all this dialogue? Or are you taking the authority of the bible on account of itself?

The earth will be goverened by Jesus as Gods spokesman and we will have opportunity to learn perfection. Daniel 2:44 tells us that the 'God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms"
This period of time will be the 1000 year millenial reign, so there will be plenty of time to return to the condition A&E lost.

If God's goal was to unite all his people together, what purpose does it serve to have trillions of people go through the rigors of the physical world? If God's plan was to be the "governor" of us all the whole time, why the delay?

Under chists rulership we will have freedom from all of this... its all thanks to his sacrifice.

Don't ever get the sense that it reads like a fairy tale?


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Peg, posted 11-07-2009 12:06 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Peg, posted 11-07-2009 9:36 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3266 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 14 of 73 (534409)
11-07-2009 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Hyroglyphx
11-07-2009 8:27 PM


Hyroglyphx writes:

Paying for the sins of the father.

actually we are paying for our own sins. God does not hold A&E sin against us which is why he sent his son in the first place.

Sin means to go contrary to Gods standards of perfection. We all go contrary to Gods standards and therefore we all sin. Even people who try to live by Gods laws fail, including myself, because we are imperfect and prone to fail with regard to Gods standards.

Hyroglyphx writes:

The verse is fat to ambiguous to conclusively draw any kind of reasonable comparison, though I agree that it is common to do so.

Genesis 3:15 fortells that Satan would have his head crused by the seed. What human could possibly kill a sprit creature? None of us can so the seed could only have been refering to someone with the power to destroy a spirit creature...they would have to be a spirit themselves.

the “seed” is mentioned throughout the OT by the prophets who shed much light on identifying who the seed would be. Isaac’s own son, Jacob, prophesied that the “seed” would be a ruler called Shiloh, or “The One to Whom It Belongs,” out of Judah. (Gen. 49:10) Isaiah foretold his being born of a virgin, from David’s house, his humiliation and rejection and his sacrificial death. (Isa. 7:14; 9:6, 7; 28:16; 50:6; 53:5-12) Daniel described him as “Messiah the Leader,” and foretold the exact dates of his appearing and of his being cut off in death. (Dan. 9:24-27)

Other prophets also added details about his life, ministry, death and resurrection. (see Micah 5:2; Hosea 11:1; Zecheriah 9:9; 11:12; Psalm 22:16-18; 34:20; 16:10; 110:1)
There are literally hundreds of prophecies about the identity of the “seed” And when Jesus arrived the disciples repeatedly testified under inspiration that he was the foretold 'seed'

That means that Genesis 3:15 is speaking about Jesus...the one who came to defeat Satan. Satan 'bruised him (jesus) in the heal' when he had him killed, and Jesus will 'crush the serpant in the head' when he delivers the final deathblow.

Hyroglyphx writes:

How was God able to tell his story to Moses (or whomever wrote Genesis) that God and Satan had all this dialogue? Or are you taking the authority of the bible on account of itself?

2 Peter 1:21 “Prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.”

When Moses wrote the account of Job, it was under guidance of Gods holy spirit. The writers did not sit around making up stories. They were merely secretaries for God. He guided their thoughts and the writers put it down in writing. This makes God the author of the bible, not men. So yes, i do take the bible on its own authority.

Hyroglyphx writes:

If God's goal was to unite all his people together, what purpose does it serve to have trillions of people go through the rigors of the physical world? If God's plan was to be the "governor" of us all the whole time, why the delay?

as i said in my first post, it comes back to Adam and Eve and Satan. They went off course and rebelled against God.
This rebellion is why we are in state we are in. God is not so malicious as to destroy his opposers but he allowed Satan time to state his case. However, all along the trail of human history, he has been there providing them with his instructions. First it was thru the patriachs, then thru the Nation of Isreal (people from any nation could join Isreal) then it was through his own Son Jesus Christ.

When Jesus came on the scene he showed them what God was like and how God wanted them to act. Christianity is leading people back to God through his son Jesus.

Hyroglyphx writes:

Don't ever get the sense that it reads like a fairy tale?


Never.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-07-2009 8:27 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-08-2009 11:18 AM Peg has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5866
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 15 of 73 (534435)
11-08-2009 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Peg
11-07-2009 9:36 PM


actually we are paying for our own sins. God does not hold A&E sin against us which is why he sent his son in the first place.

All of mankind suffer for their transgressions. Follow the timeline in sequential order and there is not much else to deduce.

1. Adam and Eve sinned when they disobeyed God's command. (Genesis 3:1-6)
2. When Adam and Eve sinned, they separated mankind from the good life God had intended for mankind. (Genesis 3:10, 23)
3. When Adam and Eve sinned, they damaged and altered forever mankind's relationship with God. (Genesis 3:8)
4. When Adam and Eve sinned, they brought physical suffering on mankind. (Genesis 3:16-19)
5. The effects of this single sin were felt not only by the sinners, but also all of mankind who followed. (Genesis 3:15-19)

We therefore pay for their mistakes.

Sin means to go contrary to Gods standards of perfection.

Which we are designed to do. Nothing can happen apart from the will of God, and we certainly didn't create ourselves. There is only one thing left to deduce, and that is that God created us imperfect and then punishes us for those frailties.

True or false: God imparted our natural desires and our predilections for sin.

We all go contrary to Gods standards and therefore we all sin.

Exactly! We were designed to fail, so how can we be held more accountable than the one who created this way?

Genesis 3:15 fortells that Satan would have his head crused by the seed. What human could possibly kill a sprit creature? None of us can so the seed could only have been refering to someone with the power to destroy a spirit creature...they would have to be a spirit themselves.

The Serpent is never described as a "spirit" nor was it ever described in Genesis as Satan, the great evil protagonist. The earliest the name Satan was introduced was in Job. It is therefore unclear as to the authors true intent.

Satan very much evolved throughout the centuries taking on greater meaning and relevance, but was not always a central figure.

the “seed” is mentioned throughout the OT by the prophets who shed much light on identifying who the seed would be. Isaac’s own son, Jacob, prophesied that the “seed” would be a ruler called Shiloh, or “The One to Whom It Belongs,” out of Judah. (Gen. 49:10) Isaiah foretold his being born of a virgin, from David’s house, his humiliation and rejection and his sacrificial death. (Isa. 7:14; 9:6, 7; 28:16; 50:6; 53:5-12) Daniel described him as “Messiah the Leader,” and foretold the exact dates of his appearing and of his being cut off in death. (Dan. 9:24-27)

I agree that there has almost always been a messianic figure in Judaism who would redeem the Jews. I am simply saying that the passage in Genesis is ambiguous, and indeed, the term "seed" is also ambiguous. "Seed" generally refers to one's progeny or direct line of descendants.

That means that Genesis 3:15 is speaking about Jesus...the one who came to defeat Satan. Satan 'bruised him (jesus) in the heal' when he had him killed, and Jesus will 'crush the serpant in the head' when he delivers the final deathblow.

You are drawing conclusions from a very ambiguous piece of scripture. It may or may not mean that, I am simply saying that to draw a parallel is done so from people who want to see parallels so it can justify New Testament prophecy.

When Moses wrote the account of Job

Can you please explain why you think Moses wrote the book of Job? The last time I checked, authorship is unknown.

The writers did not sit around making up stories. They were merely secretaries for God.

How would you know either way? Do you know how many gnostic scriptures were written all claiming to be divinely inspired? Hundreds of codices have been discovered. It was only after the voting process that the canonized bible is the way it is. The point is that for hundreds or even thousands of years, people revered non-canonized writings as being from God.

What makes you so sure that the canonized bible is completely inspired by God (even the Songs of Solomon) but the Book of Jasher (which is referenced in the bible) is not from God?

How do you know? Or are you simply taking the authority of the Bible on account of itself?

He guided their thoughts and the writers put it down in writing. This makes God the author of the bible, not men. So yes, i do take the bible on its own authority.

My question is how you know this to be true. From where I'm sitting it appears circular.

as i said in my first post, it comes back to Adam and Eve and Satan. They went off course and rebelled against God.
This rebellion is why we are in state we are in. God is not so malicious as to destroy his opposers but he allowed Satan time to state his case.

Allowing him to state his case??? In no uncertain terms, Satan and the "Man of Perdition" are doomed and there is nothing that can be done or said to alter that course according to the scriptures. It's the same thing for Judas, a man who was predestined to betray Jesus in order to prove a prophecy.

So again I ask, what purpose does it serve to have ever created the physical world when it is more than evident, by scripture, that the spiritual world is all that really matters?

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Peg, posted 11-07-2009 9:36 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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