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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Really Suffer?
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 3281 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 61 of 73 (536786)
11-25-2009 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Pauline
11-25-2009 3:45 AM


Re: PLEASE DON'T MISQUOTE ME!
Isn't it amazing how God can make someone who is against Him to contribute to fulfill God's own plan. All the characters, elements, and entities that contributed to Christ's death, right from the smallest thorn in His brow to the mighty governor Pilate's command to execute Him, were all installed, controlled and orchestrated by God himself to fulfill His plan. And do you know have any idea what his plan was? It was to save you from hell!

Tell him not to bother next time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Pauline, posted 11-25-2009 3:45 AM Pauline has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-25-2009 2:39 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 62 of 73 (536789)
11-25-2009 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Teapots&unicorns
11-24-2009 4:13 PM


Re: Please Stop Dodging the Questions
Teapots&unicorns writes:

Also, just something I'm wondering; If there is no heaven/hell, then why follow God?

because following God means everlasting life on earth


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-24-2009 4:13 PM Teapots&unicorns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-25-2009 2:34 PM Peg has not yet responded

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 3226 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 63 of 73 (536893)
11-25-2009 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Pauline
11-25-2009 12:42 AM


TU writes:

So God sacrificed himself so he could forgive sins?
Why couldn't he have forgiven people anyway? The Bible clearly says that the decision to die and forgive was God's, so why didn't he just skip the 1st part?


Because God’s just nature requires that punishment be given to the guilty, a price be paid for sin. God is just. If He forgave people anyway, would that not be injustice? If you were a judge and a murderer was brought before you, would you convict him guilty and punish him, or would you let him go free? Which action would prove you to be a “judge”-an arbiter of justice, an upholder of law?

If God pays himself a price, then there is no true price. If I pay myself $5 so that my brother can have my shirt, then the net price is $0, therefore I did not have to pay the price at all in the first place if I was willing to accept that kind of payment.

Oh, and, stop comparing humanity to murderers. Are all people just as horrible and inhuman as murderers? How?
Prove it.

TU writes:

why does he need to prove who he is in order to help?

So that idiots would have no chance to disprove His deity. His resurrection was not aimed at “proving His deity” even though it serves that purpose very well. His resurrection and ascension into heaven demonstrates that those who die to sin and live in Christ, will one day rise and live with God in heaven. And for the record, Jesus wasn’t “helping”. The fate of the universe is in His hands!!!!!! He was “having mercy” on wretches like you and me.


He couldn't have just said that? Please try to make sense.

Oh, and how are we 'wretches?' What have any of us non-murderers done to warrant that title?

As per his pain, he had no more than any other criminal who had been killed on the cross.

Wow!!!! how come I never of you before! Man! I’m glad to meet you! You were the one who crucified my Lord! Not only crucified, but “measured” his pain, and the pain of all people who’ve ever been crucified. Pleased to meet you. Thank you for helping fulfill God’s plan. As a believer, I glory in Jesus’s death on the cross. Jesus’s death is no sad thing to mourn over. It the ultimate demonstration of true love and the door to heaven which otherwise, would forever be closed.


I don't understand your attempted mockery. If someone is crucified and another is crucified, their pain is the same within degrees of crueler treatment, drugs, well-being, and so on.

If Jesus' death is not to mourn over, then how is it a sacrifice?
How is it 'true love' if he banned people from Heaven if they didn't recognize him?
Why would Heaven be closed?

Furthermore, so God directed his wrath at himself? What is he, emo? And, in addition, he cut himself in two? Yeah, I can see where that might be painful, but hardly 'ultimate.'

Yes, isn’t that amazing! God directed the wrath that you deserve, at Himself!!!! Because He knows that TU can never bear that wrath. He needed someone holy, as holy as himself to “pay” for you sins. Invoking your T-Shirt illustration here, TU doesn’t have enough money to ever buy that T-Shirt from God. But God wants TU to have the T-Shirt even though TU doesn’t deserve it. So what does God do? HE pays the price and gives TU the T-Shirt. Isn’t that amazing!! Talk about unselfish grace. And buddy, please do some research before starting discussions. When I said Jesus was separated, I mean, from God. Do you anything about Trinity?? If not, this will probably not make sense. Anywho, you don’t need to understand trinity to have faith in Jesus.

Why does he need to direct his wrath at someone? Can't he choose not to?

If God pays himself, there is no 'payment' involved. There is a net payment of 0.

If God pays himself and gives the shirt, then it is the same as just giving the shirt. There is no difference between someone who gives themselves what they already had and someone that just doesn't bother.

I don't understand about Jesus' pain in relation to the trinity. How, exactly, was he 'separated' from God? Could you please clear this up?

Did God sacrifice himself to forgive sins? Could he have just forgiven them in the first place?

No. Because that would violate His rules. You say, “why do we need rules? Why not just have mercy because we’re dealing with billions of innocent people?” Son, He DID have mercy!!

I fail to see how letting innocent people suffer for eternity is 'mercy.' Mercy is not charging the guy $10 and then deciding on $9.50 because he is poor; mercy is giving it away for free.

Christ’s dying on the cross is mercy! His offering the gift of salvation to you is mercy!

See above. Unless it is offered unconditionally, it is not mercy.

No, He will not extend that mercy to entire mankind because then, He would become an unjust God if He did. You don’t realize that mankind has sinned against God, do you???

How would being merciful be unjust? I see no crime that humanity has committed to warrant such. How have we sinned? By not being perfect (which is impossible)?

If you did, you would understand the concepts of sin, guilt, judgment, mercy, propitiation, redemption, imputation, and so on.

Oh I understand those all right; just in a sense of actually doing good in the world rather than praying to an invisible friend.

Seems to me, (and please don’t take offense), that you have molded “God” (the concept) to fit your expectations! (agree with me or not, it is highly evident in your posts) You want him to be a puppet in your hands: to not have a nature of His own, to be like men, to do what appears good on the outside. Let me tell you, that’s exactly the wrong way to approach the God of the Bible.

Well then what is the right approach? I am treating God as if he could have made another decision and thus as if he has his own will. All I want is for him to be sincerely merciful in that he wants to save everyone, not just his elite.

Oh, so Jesus didn't have to suffer for sin? Thanks for clearing that up.

Ah, way to twist the meaning of words! (or to misunderstand) Think about it this way, Jesus doesn’t have to pay for your T-Shirt its you who need it, therefore you must pay for it. But, Jesus payed for your T-Shirt because He knows ****you don’t have enough money**** (****and you will never have enough****). Similarly, Jesus suffered all the pain that sinful men deserve, when in fact, He didn’t need to! Thank you for putting out your misconceptions and helping me clear them up.


Ah, I see. You're saying that Jesus was not required to suffer, but it was the only way to do so. Please be a little clearer next time.
Also, why are all people sinful? Why does that deserve pain? How does Jesus suffering change any of what they deserve?

If someone deserves something, then to do otherwise would be unjust. However, you have provided no reason to think that they do deserve it, that God could not have done otherwise, and how justice is in any way related to what you are trying to say.

Me writes:

True love hates. God hates sin=God hates JUC. At the same time, God loves JUC enough to give him/her a chance. God cannot totally love and totally judge and claim to be just. He loves= He sends Christ to die in your place. He judges= He prepares Hell for those who reject Christ.


TU retorts:

TU writes:

I don't really understand this at all: does God hate us or love us? You cannot have both. He can have mercy, which is hardly likely, but he cannot love us. The two terms are mutually exclusive: it's like saying black and white. If you add white, it's not black, but gray.


Alright.
1 God loves people. /qs
Ok

But God hates sin and punishes sinners.

Not hates sinners. Doing something bad doesn't make you a bad person. Hate the action, not the person.

2 Dr.Sing is a creation of God’s.

Prove it.

God loves Dr. Sing.

According to the Bible, yes. But why?
But Dr. Sing is a sinner.

What sin have you committed?

God hates Dr. Sing’s sin and should punish Dr. Sing.

Not punish him, just make sure that he understands the consequences and does not do it again. To do otherwise would be unjust and, as I said in either another post or thread, just standing there with a club saying "someone has to pay..."

(The punishment is –eternal life in hell).

Read this again, Sing

eternal

How can eternal anything but justifiable? We cannot commit infinite crimes, therefore they do not and can not warrant infinite punishment. The punishment must fit the crime. To do less than that is either mercy (if the person is remorseful) or cowardness. To do more- especially infinite- is monstrous.

You tell me, how can God to justice to Dr. Sing? Propose a prospective method by which to keep God’s integrity and save Dr. Sing because God loves Dr. Sing.

All right; here I go.

If Dr Sing does something God doesn't like (ie sins), then God tells him that and make sure he doesn't do it again. If the crime is repeated, then God may punish or try to reform him- but never infinitely. There is no infinite crime, so there can be no infinite punishment.

Why can't he just extend this wonderful gift to everyone? Or, could he at least not punish those who refused it? Wouldn't that be "just?"

Definition of Justice
One, He does extend eternal life to all. It is WE who reject Him.

How can I reject a being that I don't even know exists? Why can't he just show up and say: "Hey dude, I'm God. Worship me." Whether I obeyed or not, at least then I would know what I was doing and could at least consciously 'reject' him.

Two, why should He not punish those who reject Him? He offers heaven to people who originally deserve hell, some people reject heaven, therefore, they get hell. Fair? Indeed.

Fair? Not at all.

How do we deserve hell? What have we done that is so horrible?

There is no infinite crime, so there can be no infinite punishment.

Any being that creates infinite punishment is monstrous and disgusting and can only enjoy the pain of others.

The lack of goodness (heaven) is not suffering and agony; it is nonexistence. That is all we're asking for.

So if Jesus doesn't have to suffer for our sins, then why was he crucified as a 'sacrifice?' You're getting really inconsistent hear, Sing. You're really kind of making my point for me: there was no point in Jesus' crucifiction.

It is more likely that a sword from the Atlantic ocean came and sawed me in half than for me to have proven your point, son. Far from it. Anyway, I already cleared up your what words of mine you misconstrued. Refer to an earlier quote.


Now I understand your earlier quote, but there is still no point to Jesus' sacrifice if he could have done otherwise and didn't even lose anything.

TU writes:

As for being in Hell and judging, what I said was that I would respect it more ifi that was the case. If he was experiencing everyone's pain so that they could go to heaven, then Christianity would have a lot more emotional appeal to me: a true martyr in a religion does that. That's obviously not the case, though, and thus I do not really particularly respect; that's why I made this thread in the first place!


Christ experienced everyone’s pain so that they could go to heaven. Just not in the way you “propse/expect/hope/wish/like/fancy/makeup farcical expectations/waste people’s time etc”. Oh, I see the real reason you made this thread, bud. I’m glad I’m getting to tell you the truth.

So Jesus experienced the total, infinite pain of everyone in hell?
Why did somebody have to endure that?

TU writes:

Is Jesus God or is he separate? If he is God, then God committed suicide; if they are separate, then God sacrificed an innocent for the greater good; also, both cases could be resolved easily without sacrifice.


You tell me, is Jesus God? What have you done with the very first few verses I quoted from the bible? I know you didn’t “think” about them, but I’m curious to know what exactly you plan to do with EVERY SINGLE SUPPORT I give for my arguments.

You are not making sense here, Dr. My question was, could God have just forgiven sins without sacrifice; if this was possible then how is Jesus' sacrifice meaningful; and if so, then why did he do it that one way?

If God says X, then it is X. He can just as easily say Y.

Before we continue, please try not to quote the Bible much in this vein as most here don't take the Bible on its own authority- that's circular.

I’m sorry for those who don’t regard the Bible as truth. Since the Bible is EVERYTHING I depend upon in my faith, I’m sorry that I cannot argue with you if you are so closed-minded and mannerless enough to put bars on my freedom. One could prove to you that Jesus is God and make sense out of all the mess you’ve created using the Bible and only the Bible. Whether you are willing to listen or not is your choice.


Fine, prove that the Bible is true using objectivity and non-biblical sources.

In addition, if God is supreme and mighty, why did he have to require a sacrifice and potentially damn billions of people?

Heb 9:22

Sing, God made the law. He can change it if it suits his needs. Why did he continue to require blood and pain for sins? He is barbaric.

And, no, I would prefer not to die for my sins; for one thing, I don't believe in them, but also, 'dying' for sins is completely a waste and accomplishes nothing if you can just forgive them anyway.

From this I understand two very pertinent points about where you’re coming from:
1. You do not believe in the concept of sin (neither are you willing to look at yourself as a sinner) ---no wonder you’re having a rough time getting my points!

Well, I believe in the concept of doing bad things and being judged for them, but not 'sin' in the way that you are describing.

2. You absolutely do not understand the concepts of justice, propitiaton, and imputation.(since all of these are based on the concepts of sin)
And, you see, you yourself are not willing to die for your own sins. Christ dies for them. And you still do not realize the magnitude of mercy there?! Really?!

I do understand these concepts; the way that you are representing them is twisted and incomprehensible. I am not willing to die for my 'sins' because I do not think that any transgression that I have committed deserves death. What 'sins' are you talking about?

Christ dies for them. And you still do not realize the magnitude of mercy there?! Really?

Is Christ God? Then God paid his own price which is thus meaningless.
Is Christ not God? Then how can he forgive sins?

Why is it required by God that death is the price of sin? How can you fail to realize my question? I am not asking "why do you say that X is so", I am asking "why did God say X is so and why can't he change it?"

Dr Sing, just above you said that Jesus did not die for our sins. Make up your mind. Also, you have refused to answer this: why did God require a price for the forgiveness of sin and then pay it himself?

Excuse me, I never said that Jesus did not die for our sins. Jesus died for our sins. What on the planet are you misconstruing my words for?!


Why was this necessacary?

I’m getting sick and tired of answering the same question again and again. Have you checked your IQ recently?
No ad hominem please. Answer the question- don't avoid it.

God requires a price to be paid for sin because He hates sin. Sin is disobedience again God, not even against law/order/conscience/ or anything! And God pays the price Himself because only He can. Let me ask you, have you ever read the Old Testament? Or any part of the Bible?

Many, many issues here.

Why does God hate sin?
Why do we have to pay a price.
Why should we obey God?
How is paying it yourself possible? If I pay myself $5 out of my own money, then nothing is different.
And why are God's rules the way they are? (Euthypro Dilemna- tread carefully)

Why is there a need for sacrifice?
How does any of what you just said impact Jesus' suffering; if anything, it alleviates it.
Oh, and if you think it becomes meaningless, tell that to Peg.

There is need for sacrifice because there is a GREAT need for you to THINK. Again. Heb 9:22. Without shedding of blood (sacrifice), there is NO REMISSION (no forgiveness) for SIN. Get it, kid?

I will say it again: Why did God require blood for sin?

And who is Peg?

Read the thread.

Hebrews 9:22 (New International Version)
22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Why does God require that price when he could just forgive the sin?

I’m sorry. God doesn’t “just forgive sin” because if He did that would make Him a liar. That would be like a judge letting a murderer go free even after the murderer took the lives of innocent people. Are you presenting that Christ's sacrifice was unwarranted?


Yes Sing, I am saing that it was unwarranted. God did not sacrifice anything.

How does 'forgiving sin' make God a liar?
How is humanity like a murderer?
What did God actually 'sacrifice?'
Why did he have to?

So let's see how this goes:
Dr. Sing goes to God to buy a t-shirt; God says that Dr Sing doesn't have enough $. Because God knows the good Dr really wants the shirt, he pays himself the necessary money and calls it even, but only if Sing knows that he both wants the shirt, God is the only one who can give him the shirt, and worships God for 'giving up' his own $ (to himself) so that he can have the shirt- but only finds this all out as true when he leaves the store for good.

Ah, a few words that actually are coherent at last. Thank you.
In your illustration, does Doc Sing leave the store without buying the T-Shirt from God with God’s money?


No, the good doctor receives his merchandise after buying and exiting.

Oh, and as JUC said, my name is T&U. Please remember it for 2 reasons: 1st, I'll be the one ruling over all of you soon, and 2nd, I don't like identity theft

Alright, nice to meet you TU- future monarch of planet earth. Let me urge you to learn a concept called, “cognition”. It might help when ruling over us all. Thanks!

A few things, do you believe in a literal heaven and hell? and have you read any other Scriptures like the gita, or Quran?


I do not believe in a literal heaven/hell. If you had read any of posts you would know that I am an atheist.
I have not specifically read the Quran/Baghdad Vita/etc. as of yet, but I would like to and at the moment am mainly concerned with Judeo-Christian teachings (the focus of this site) which I am familiar with.

Dr. Sing, please stop insulting me with words like 'son' and 'kid', as well as questioning my intelligence. You'll soon learn that it gets you nowhere in a debate like this and makes you seem immature. Please refrain from doing so.

T&U


“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
- Stephen Roberts

“I'm a polyatheist - there are many gods I don't believe in”
- Dan Foutes

"In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has widely been considered as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Pauline, posted 11-25-2009 12:42 AM Pauline has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Pauline, posted 11-26-2009 8:29 AM Teapots&unicorns has not yet responded
 Message 70 by Pauline, posted 11-26-2009 11:26 AM Teapots&unicorns has responded

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 3226 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 64 of 73 (536895)
11-25-2009 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Peg
11-25-2009 4:20 AM


Re: Please Stop Dodging the Questions
Peg writes:

because following God means everlasting life on earth


Ah, so Heaven then. Thanks.

T&U


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Peg, posted 11-25-2009 4:20 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 3226 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 65 of 73 (536899)
11-25-2009 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-25-2009 3:58 AM


Isn't it amazing how God can make someone who is against Him to contribute to fulfill God's own plan. All the characters, elements, and entities that contributed to Christ's death, right from the smallest thorn in His brow to the mighty governor Pilate's command to execute Him, were all installed, controlled and orchestrated by God himself to fulfill His plan. And do you know have any idea what his plan was? It was to save you from hell!

So are Judas and Pilate in Heaven?

T&U


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-25-2009 3:58 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Pauline, posted 11-26-2009 1:52 AM Teapots&unicorns has not yet responded
 Message 67 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-26-2009 4:47 AM Teapots&unicorns has not yet responded
 Message 68 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-26-2009 4:48 AM Teapots&unicorns has not yet responded

  
Pauline
Member (Idle past 2075 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 66 of 73 (536958)
11-26-2009 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Teapots&unicorns
11-25-2009 2:39 PM


So are Judas and Pilate in Heaven?

First tell me this, Do you believe that human beings have an eternal soul?

I know exactly where you going to take this mini-debate about Judas/Pilate-God using them in His plan-but they ending up in hell-what kind of a cruel God does that/ this clearly proves that you God is not a God of love but of subtle wickedness/ etc etc... and I am more than willing to tackle your queries (provided they are within reason). However, you must do some homework or else I fear my answers might produce more and more meaningless questions because of a lack of your knowledge about the Biblical concept of sin. May I suggest a starting point?

for now, I just want to tell you as succinctly as possible: Sin is separation from God. Man sins= Man is separated from God. The agent of sin is the devil. Therefore, when man sins, man seeks to please the devil. God hates sin. I cannot even begin to stress how important it is for a person who's searching for the truth to know the CORRECT definition of sin.

Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-25-2009 2:39 PM Teapots&unicorns has not yet responded

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 3281 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 67 of 73 (536964)
11-26-2009 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Teapots&unicorns
11-25-2009 2:39 PM


Hi TU

So are Judas and Pilate in Heaven?

If Dr Sing is correct, and who are we to doubt him, that God directly manipulated their actions to ensure Jesus was nailed to a cross, then God would be a right cock if he didn't let them into Heaven.

But then he'd still be a right cock anyway for orchestrating the whole charade.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-25-2009 2:39 PM Teapots&unicorns has not yet responded

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 3281 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 68 of 73 (536965)
11-26-2009 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Teapots&unicorns
11-25-2009 2:39 PM


Hi TU

So are Judas and Pilate in Heaven?

If Dr Sing is correct, and who are we to doubt him, that God directly manipulated their actions to ensure Jesus was nailed to a cross, then God would be a right cock if he didn't let them into Heaven.

But then he'd still be a right cock anyway for orchestrating the whole charade.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-25-2009 2:39 PM Teapots&unicorns has not yet responded

  
Pauline
Member (Idle past 2075 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 69 of 73 (536999)
11-26-2009 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Teapots&unicorns
11-25-2009 2:33 PM


If God pays himself a price, then there is no true price. If I pay myself $5 so that my brother can have my shirt, then the net price is $0, therefore I did not have to pay the price at all in the first place if I was willing to accept that kind of payment.

Oh, and, stop comparing humanity to murderers. Are all people just as horrible and inhuman as murderers? How?
Prove it.

Here's where you lack in your understanding of Trinity. There are three persons in the Trinity. Yet, the three persons are of the same essence. Think about it this way: Water, Ice, and Water vapor are three different arrangements of the same basic molecule: H20. Agree? Simlilarly, God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all "God". But, there is hierarchy within Godhead. Jesus submits to the Father's authority. And all three persons have different jobs. All three persons have all attributes of God, in other words, none is less divine than the other just because they are hierarchically subordinate to another (except, God the father--He is not subordinate to anyone). Here's an illustration: Jack is the father of Sam. Sam's best friend is Joe. Joe needs surgery because he has heart disease. If he doesn't have surgery, he is surely going to die within a week. Joe is a very poor kid. His parents cannot afford the expensive surgery. Joe has no way to live unless he has surgery. On the contrary, Jack is a rich guy. He's given Sam lots of money to spend for himself. Jack and Sam both want to save Joe's life. Jack could pay the money himself, but wants to show Joe how much Sam loves him. So Jack asks Sam if he will give all the money he has towards Joe's surgery. Sam agrees to give all the money he has to save his friend Joe's life becasue he loves Joe. Now, imagine. scenario 1: Jack and Sam go to the hospital and offer Joe the money. Joe accepts it. Surgery's done. Joe lives. He gets invited to spend the rest of his life in Jack's heavenly mansion. And Sam and he can always be together. Scenario 2: Joe rejects the money saying he's no poor kid, he doesn't need the mercy of some big guy. Days later, Joe dies. Jack and Sam feel very sad for poor Joe.

Jack represents God, Sam-Jesus, and Joe-Men. Now tell me, did it not cost Jesus his life to repay for your sins? Net balance is not 0. The price that God set for sin was holy blood. Jesus gave his holy blood on the cross IN EVERY BELIEVING SINNER'S place. His blood covered infinite sins!

All people are sinners. I need not prove it. Look around you. Do you see no lying, rape, murder, theft, violence, abuse, poverty, harassment, malice? Either you are blind or your have just landed on earth a nanosecond ago. If you have lived on this earth for even 15 minutes, you would say "wow, the people here are bad!" In God's sight, there is no big or small sin. By definition, sin is "disobedience against God". It (the Bible) doesn't say this many times, or only in this continent, or only for men, or its okay if you sin once and never sin again in your life (ha, you get a freebie), nope! Sin is sin, one sin or infinite sins: either one eternally separates a sinner from God. So holy is the God of the Bible that He will not tolerate even a single sin (that is not washed by the blood of Christ) Talk about integrity!

How would you like a god to be okay with sin, even a single sin (you would think he's merciful, right?). If all people who have ever lived, are living, and will live sin only once in their life...how many sins will that add up to. Will god (who we imagine to be just and holy by nature) tolerate that much sin? If he would, would it be wrong to say he's a fake and impotent god who doesn't agree with his own attributes. No. If he forgave all these sins freely (better yet, we can say just overlooked them), what about justice? Moreover, people sin 24/7. How do you handle that without marring your love and justice at the same time? .....ask the God of the Bible.

He couldn't have just said that?

Christ makes it crystal clear in the Bible, that He is God. Problem is, you choose not to believe in His words. You would rather a ethereal being appear in your dream and tell you that He's God. Right? Sorry, I think that would be cool, but the Bible says that men are too sinful to see God in all His glory. You say, "well, then, how did men see Jesus if He was God?"...they did, because he was God in the cape of a "man". If you don't get anything out of this post, please get this one thing: God can never bear/tolerate/associate with sin. Ever. This proves His holiness.

Oh, and how are we 'wretches?' What have any of us non-murderers done to warrant that title?

I know its easy to take personal offense in that comment. However, my intention is far different here. I just want you to understand that all sins are equal. If you steal a pencil and I murder my aunt, we both are sinners in God's sight. We both deserve the same punishment. Sinners don't come in shapes, sizes and colours. Its hard to understand this idea if you have you the notion that one sin is more "sinful" than another or less.

I don't understand your attempted mockery. If someone is crucified and another is crucified, their pain is the same within degrees of crueler treatment, drugs, well-being, and so on.

However, Jesus BORE GOD'S WRATH ALONG WITH physical suffering that entails every incident of crucifixtion. Do you see that there are two dimensions to this picture? A spiritual (the more pertinent one) and the physical. Jesus was separaed from His Father...he cried, he sweat, he bled, his muscles and tendons were torn, his bones broken, his organs all paralyzed, in that moment, his words were "forgive, them".

If Jesus' death is not to mourn over, then how is it a sacrifice?

Sacifice

look it up. The definition of sacrifice entails the idea of losing something valuable to ATTAIN A HIGHER PURPOSE. I do not mourn because 1. the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice was my salvation. 2. My Jesus rose again defying death itself! However, I do feel sorry for Jesus' physical pain on the cross and wish I was there to serve him then...

How is it 'true love' if he banned people from Heaven if they didn't recognize him?

He makes it very clear to people who are willing to acknowledge that they are sinners and need salvation, that He is God. Crystal clear. As clear as a message in the sky. There's no chance of missing Him if you are truly looking for Him, that much I can assure you. However, atheists and agnostics lessen their chances of "recognizing" him by "turning their faces away from Him". For which, Christ is no more responsible if they land in hell. Do you see the starting point? It all begins when one acknowledges their need for a Saviour, until then, I'm sorry but its really does not make sense to anyone why all this drama happens...

Why would Heaven be closed?

I can see why Jesus spoke in parables in His day. My new best friend is analogies.

Here's how it works (according to the Bible AND simplified):

Heaven--grand place of God's residence
God the Father--owner of Heaven
Jesus- God's Son (also God) ***Remember, God is the "essence" of what all three members are made of, therefore it is okay to say God is God and Jesus is God --its not a logical contradiction---water is made up of molecules of H2O, ice also is made of H20, its okay that both water and ice are made of H20***
One cannot enter heaven unless he is absolutely sinless.
God gives Jesus authority to allow His friends to enter heaven and life in God's house.
****Criterion to be Jesus' friend :accept Jesus' divinty and personalize His atonement and get your sins forgiven (when a friend on earth dies, Jesus tells God that Jesus paid for all sins the man committed (remember absolutely sinless?) and so God allows friend into heaven)****
Jesus invites people--people who accept the invite are now His friends and they go to heaven, people who reject the invite don't.

"heaven would be closed" would mean "Jesus wouldn't invite any one into heaven." and because no one is sinless no one would enter heaven.

Why does he need to direct his wrath at someone? Can't he choose not to?

You got it wrong. He needs to direct His wrath at you and me. However, Jesus says that He is willing to bear it on your and my behalf. and no, He can't choose not to. Heb 9:22 is your verse to read. (again)

I don't understand about Jesus' pain in relation to the trinity. How, exactly, was he 'separated' from God? Could you please clear this up?

God the Father looked at all the infinite sins on Jesus' face. Every murder, theft, lie, profane word, all the times people said I hate God!, the weight of EVERY SINGLE SIN was now accounted to Jesus even though He didn't commit one of those. He looked at His Father in heaven and said "Father, I take this lie that Rachel said, this rape that Jerry committed, this murder that Caleb did, all the times Dr. Sing (well, He really would have said my real name ), this *whatever sin* that TU did, and so on until INFINITY. Then God looked at Him and said, you sinner!!! I hate you! Get out!!! Imagine, imagine, Jesus' agony at that. This is the reason why Jesus said "My God, My God, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Notice, He didn't say, my Father..but God. This is the moment in history when the earth quaked, all the angels wept, the seas roared, the mountains trembled, the sky was filled with thunder, and Jesus cried. Then, Jesus said "Father, Forgive them" So, God the Father forgave them because Jesus took their sins upon Himself and paid the price for all those sins.

I fail to see how letting innocent people suffer for eternity is 'mercy.'

Oh, people are innocent? Uhmm, prove it.

Unless it is offered unconditionally, it is not mercy.

You mean, all should get eternal life in heaven whether or not they believe in Jesus. Right? If this is what you mean by "unconditional", then, offering it unconditionally is pure injustice. Why should Sam pay for the surgery if Joe doesn't want to accept Sam's money? Is Sam obligated to? Not at all. Period.

Oh I understand those all right; just in a sense of actually doing good in the world rather than praying to an invisible friend.

Really???????? Wow, I'm interested. How does imputation apply to Atheism? How does propitiation? Atonement? Salvation? (And no, you cannot dodge this question.)

Well then what is the right approach? I am treating God as if he could have made another decision and thus as if he has his own will. All I want is for him to be sincerely merciful in that he wants to save everyone, not just his elite.

You have a choice as to whether or not to be His one among His elite? Do you want to? Or no? You say you are an atheist= you do not want to be among His elite= you do not want to accept His invite to heaven= YOU make yourself lose mercy that He offers you. **I use "you" here to refer to any given human being, not TU)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-25-2009 2:33 PM Teapots&unicorns has not yet responded

  
Pauline
Member (Idle past 2075 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 70 of 73 (537044)
11-26-2009 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Teapots&unicorns
11-25-2009 2:33 PM


The debate continued...

Doing something bad doesn't make you a bad person. Hate the action, not the person.

Answer to first sentence,
But only bad people do bad things. You are saying "just because a peach tree produces an apple, doesn't mean that it is an apple tree". I'm saying "Well, it would not have produced an apple if it were a peach tree in the first place". Think about it. Sins don't make you a sinner. You sin BECAUSE you are a sinner.

Answer to second sentence,
Because God loves the person, He pays for the action Himself and offers to redeem the person from the bondage of the action.

Remaining answers:

1. Dr. Sing is part of the world. God created the world (so says the Bible). Therefore, God created Dr. Sing.

2. I have committed a lot of sins. Some include disobeying my parents, hating people, lying, wasting time, just to name a few. A drop of the ocean.

Not punish him, just make sure that he understands the consequences and does not do it again.

How old are you? Are you married? I'm not married and I don't have kids, but I work with kids and know how they think. Your above statement reflects pretty much exactly how they think. Its like...parent (to johnnny): listen now sweetheart, I'll let you open the cookie jar and take one cookie for now but NEVER steal cookies when mommy's away. Johnny (innocent voice): okay, mama. ---Mama goes to bedroom......Johnny steals 5 cookies---

Yep, now tell me, does your suggested method of action work?

How can eternal anything but justifiable? We cannot commit infinite crimes, therefore they do not and can not warrant infinite punishment. The punishment must fit the crime. To do less than that is either mercy (if the person is remorseful) or cowardness. To do more- especially infinite- is monstrous.

Alright,alright, lets try to clear up the mess. Do you, TU, believe that people are inherently sinful?

If Dr Sing does something God doesn't like (ie sins), then God tells him that and make sure he doesn't do it again. If the crime is repeated, then God may punish or try to reform him- but never infinitely. There is no infinite crime, so there can be no infinite punishment.

Flaw number 1: Wrong definition of sin. Sin is defined "eternal separation of sinful man from holy God". Presently, there is no method of communication between God and Dr. Sing. Your theory collapses! Not only does Dr. Sing keep sinning but also God has turned His face away from Dr. Sing. Unless Dr. Sing is holy, God will not associate with her at all. Now what?

Flaw 2: God never forcefully reforms people. This is where free-will kicks in. God helps people change if they choose to change. You haven't mentioned whether Dr. Sing wants to stop sinning, or doesn't want to stop sinning. Furthermore, because Dr. Sing is inherently sinful, even if she wants to stop sinning, she will still sin lifelong. Apple trees bear apples until they die. Why? Because they are apple trees.

Now, lets understand why there is infinite punishment for sin:

God created man in His image. God is eternal. Therefore, man is eternal. One sin is enough to disrupt God's plan to make humans live in Heaven. Separated from God, sinful man suffers eternally. Eternal suffering comes into play because men are eternal creatures, not because God is SO ANGRY THAT HE WANTS TO TORMENT YOU FOREVER. Not at all.

How can I reject a being that I don't even know exists? Why can't he just show up and say: "Hey dude, I'm God. Worship me." Whether I obeyed or not, at least then I would know what I was doing and could at least consciously 'reject' him.

In this case, Joe is saying "I will not accept Sam's money if he came to me or did not come to me, I just don't want Sam's money, I want to die. Please let me die!"

I'm sorry you don't think He exists. He does.

You are not making sense here, Dr. My question was, could God have just forgiven sins without sacrifice; if this was possible then how is Jesus' sacrifice meaningful; and if so, then why did he do it that one way?

If God says X, then it is X. He can just as easily say Y.

And my answer (for the billionth time) is, no God cannot forgiven sins without sacrifice. And God cannot easily say Y if Y contradicts His nature.

Fine, prove that the Bible is true using objectivity and non-biblical sources.

What will you do if I did prove so? What exactly do you want me to prove in the Bible? Which points are more pertinent to you? Is there anything you find hard to agree with?

Sing, God made the law. He can change it if it suits his needs. Why did he continue to require blood and pain for sins?

Somehow, I see genuine earnestness in this quote of yours. I really do. And I wish I could somehow show you that God is not this cruel monarch that you imagine Him to be..........I wish, I wish, I wish, you would talk with God and He would talk with you.

Well, I believe in the concept of doing bad things and being judged for them, but not 'sin' in the way that you are describing.

Exactly. The Bible's defines sin as separation from God. Not "doing bad things". So, now what? The ball's in your court.

What 'sins' are you talking about?

Man's inherent sinful nature.

Why does God hate sin?

Because sin separates men from God

I will say it again: Why did God require blood for sin?

A reason for Heb 9:22? So that sinners understand THE COST OF SIN. Sin is no light matter to be forgiven with just a sorry, or a pretty i'll neer do it again' card. God is serious about sin. Therefore Heb 9:22

How does 'forgiving sin' make God a liar?

No twisting words, please. You said "why can't God "just forgive sins", implying forgive without requiring punishment. But God's Word says that every single sin will be punished (a just God). So I said, if God forgave sin without punishing someone for it, He would be breaking His own rule (be unjust). Which would make God a liar.

No, the good doctor receives his merchandise after buying and exiting.

Okay, so whats your problem?

I do not believe in a literal heaven/hell. If you had read any of posts you would know that I am an atheist.

What is your philosophy of life? How do you viw existence? What is your definition is purpose? love? gain? loss? grace? charity? Who is your rolemodel, if you have one? Who do you look upto for advice? Who do you trust? What do you do when life gives you trials? What do you think about death?

I have not specifically read the Quran/Baghdad Vita/etc. as of yet, but I would like to and at the moment am mainly concerned with Judeo-Christian teachings (the focus of this site) which I am familiar with.

Its Bhagavad Gita. Baghdad is the capital of Iraq.

Dr. Sing, please stop insulting me with words like 'son' and 'kid', as well as questioning my intelligence.

I'm trying. Put yourself in my shoes, I got asked the same question atleast 20 times and answered it as many! Questioning is easy. Answering makes you sweat. Anywho, since you asked politely, I'll promise to be nicer if you promise to act smarter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-25-2009 2:33 PM Teapots&unicorns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-26-2009 9:30 PM Pauline has responded

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 3226 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 71 of 73 (537099)
11-26-2009 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Pauline
11-26-2009 11:26 AM


I'm about to eat apple pie so I'll try to do this as quick as I can.

Doing something bad doesn't make you a bad person. Hate the action, not the person.

Answer to first sentence,
But only bad people do bad things. You are saying "just because a peach tree produces an apple, doesn't mean that it is an apple tree". I'm saying "Well, it would not have produced an apple if it were a peach tree in the first place". Think about it. Sins don't make you a sinner. You sin BECAUSE you are a sinner.


No, because good people can make mistakes. Do you know the word 'manslaughter?' It is the word used when killing was accidental and entirely regretted. Does that change the fact that it was killing?
Oh, and God lies, steals, and kills in the Bible. Is he a sinner?

Answer to second sentence,
Because God loves the person, He pays for the action Himself and offers to redeem the person from the bondage of the action.

Ok, but that doesn't explain why people would have to go to hell if God is willing to redeem them.

1. Dr. Sing is part of the world. God created the world (so says the Bible). Therefore, God created Dr. Sing.

Ok, I guess this is true if taken on its own terms.

2. I have committed a lot of sins. Some include disobeying my parents, hating people, lying, wasting time, just to name a few. A drop of the ocean.

I don't understand the relevance of this, Sing. Just one question: did you regret/apologize for these things? If so, then if you tried to heal the hurt, you cannot be held accountable.

Not punish him, just make sure that he understands the consequences and does not do it again.

How old are you? Are you married? I'm not married and I don't have kids, but I work with kids and know how they think. Your above statement reflects pretty much exactly how they think. Its like...parent (to johnnny): listen now sweetheart, I'll let you open the cookie jar and take one cookie for now but NEVER steal cookies when mommy's away. Johnny (innocent voice): okay, mama. ---Mama goes to bedroom......Johnny steals 5 cookies---


So God doesn't know if people are disobeying?

Bye-bye all-knowingness.

(What does God do in his bedroom anyway ?

Yep, now tell me, does your suggested method of action work?

If someone's doing something wrong, then God shows up and tells them what their mistake is. If they continue, then God continues to warn them and if the object of their sin is causing harm then he prevents the violence. That wouldn't prevent- they could swing and rage all they wanted. Would that achieve anything? No. Would that realize the meaninglessness of their actions? Yes.

How can eternal anything but justifiable? We cannot commit infinite crimes, therefore they do not and can not warrant infinite punishment. The punishment must fit the crime. To do less than that is either mercy (if the person is remorseful) or cowardness. To do more- especially infinite- is monstrous.

Alright,alright, lets try to clear up the mess. Do you, TU, believe that people are inherently sinful?

If you define the ability to sin as 'sinful,' then yes. However, I do believe that people also have huge capacity for goodness. Besides, who else are we to blame for that nature but God?

If Dr Sing does something God doesn't like (ie sins), then God tells him that and make sure he doesn't do it again. If the crime is repeated, then God may punish or try to reform him- but never infinitely. There is no infinite crime, so there can be no infinite punishment.

Flaw number 1: Wrong definition of sin. Sin is defined "eternal separation of sinful man from holy God". Presently, there is no method of communication between God and Dr. Sing. Your theory collapses! Not only does Dr. Sing keep sinning but also God has turned His face away from Dr. Sing. Unless Dr. Sing is holy, God will not associate with her at all. Now what?


Where do you get this definition of sin?
Why can God not communicate with you?
Why can't God help Dr. Sing become holy instead of turning away when Dr. Sing is helpless?
Why can't just God grant Dr. Sing nonexistence? I presume that without God there is no life or existence, so this would be the only logical idea, unless God wanted those people to endure agony.

Flaw 2: God never forcefully reforms people. This is where free-will kicks in. God helps people change if they choose to change. You haven't mentioned whether Dr. Sing wants to stop sinning, or doesn't want to stop sinning. Furthermore, because Dr. Sing is inherently sinful, even if she wants to stop sinning, she will still sin lifelong. Apple trees bear apples until they die. Why? Because they are apple trees.

So our justice system forcefully reforms people? No. All that God would be doing would be giving them the tools that they needed; the ultimate choice would reside with the sinner.

Is it Dr. Sing's fault that she is a sinner?
Can she control that?

Now, lets understand why there is infinite punishment for sin:

Oh, this'll be good.

God created man in His image. God is eternal. Therefore, man is eternal. One sin is enough to disrupt God's plan to make humans live in Heaven. Separated from God, sinful man suffers eternally. Eternal suffering comes into play because men are eternal creatures, not because God is SO ANGRY THAT HE WANTS TO TORMENT YOU FOREVER. Not at all.

WHOA! Slow down here.

If God created Man in his image, then man could not sin.

And God cannot easily say Y if Y contradicts His nature.

Sin, I would assume, contradicts God's holiness?
Why could he not have created man this way?

Why could he not let people die, Period, if they wanted to? That is 'free will,' right?

How can I reject a being that I don't even know exists? Why can't he just show up and say: "Hey dude, I'm God. Worship me." Whether I obeyed or not, at least then I would know what I was doing and could at least consciously 'reject' him.

In this case, Joe is saying "I will not accept Sam's money if he came to me or did not come to me, I just don't want Sam's money, I want to die. Please let me die!"

I'm sorry you don't think He exists. He does.


No, Joe is saying "Why should I give Sam the shirt? I don't even know if he exists or has any money?"

You are not making sense here, Dr. My question was, could God have just forgiven sins without sacrifice; if this was possible then how is Jesus' sacrifice meaningful; and if so, then why did he do it that one way?

If God says X, then it is X. He can just as easily say Y.

And my answer (for the billionth time) is, no God cannot forgiven sins without sacrifice. And God cannot easily say Y if Y contradicts His nature.


Sing, I would just like to offer a question. Why is God's nature "good?"
Why is it that way? (Like why is the sky blue?)

Fine, prove that the Bible is true using objectivity and non-biblical sources.

What will you do if I did prove so? What exactly do you want me to prove in the Bible? Which points are more pertinent to you? Is there anything you find hard to agree with?


Well, as for things I disagree with, see Reviewing the Bible in 365 Days (It's a great blog that I just found)

Furthermore, if the Bible cannot be proven true, then there is no point or truth in Judaism/Christianity.

Sing, God made the law. He can change it if it suits his needs. Why did he continue to require blood and pain for sins?

Somehow, I see genuine earnestness in this quote of yours. I really do. And I wish I could somehow show you that God is not this cruel monarch that you imagine Him to be..........I wish, I wish, I wish, you would talk with God and He would talk with you.


Why does God require this if he is not cruel?
I would most certainly like to talk to your God. However, he hasn't exactly showed up.

What 'sins' are you talking about?

Man's inherent sinful nature.


Ignoring the question: What 'sinful nature?'

Why does God hate sin?

Because sin separates men from God


Why is God 'good?'

I will say it again: Why did God require blood for sin?

A reason for Heb 9:22? So that sinners understand THE COST OF SIN. Sin is no light matter to be forgiven with just a sorry, or a pretty i'll neer do it again' card. God is serious about sin. Therefore Heb 9:22


I know that God is serious about sin. So am I.

Causing harm to another is unjustifiable except in self-defense or in cases of mental/emotional deficiency (sociopaths). Anyone who does such a thing should be required to do as much as they can to make up for their mistakes and be made to realize just how much suffering and pain they have caused. True 'redemption' cannot be achieved with death or torture.

Your God thrives on fear. My society revolves around justice.

How does 'forgiving sin' make God a liar?

No twisting words, please. You said "why can't God "just forgive sins", implying forgive without requiring punishment. But God's Word says that every single sin will be punished (a just God). So I said, if God forgave sin without punishing someone for it, He would be breaking His own rule (be unjust). Which would make God a liar.


So he cannot change his own laws?
Why are his laws just?
Why did he choose them?
How are they 'good?'
Why can't he directly help and/or forgive someone without requiring punishment and only needing remorse and effort to undo what they have done?

No, the good doctor receives his merchandise after buying and exiting.

Okay, so whats your problem?


How do the people in the store even know that the doctor gets the money if they are still inside? Furthermore, how do they know if there even is a cashier if he locks himself up and only shows himself to those about to check out?

I do not believe in a literal heaven/hell. If you had read any of posts you would know that I am an atheist.

Get ready for quoting. I apologize for not saying it directly, but this site has so many points spot-on that I felt that I could easily write it myself and just be saying the same things. Check it out: EbonMusings

What is your philosophy of life?

EbonMusings writes:

believe that atheism implies freedom. I believe that, while it does not give our lives meaning or purpose in and of itself, neither does it deny the possibility of these things. It is the right of every human being to steer their own course, to decide what makes their existence meaningful and what their purpose in life should be, and within reason, atheism can accommodate whatever we choose. I believe that our minds and our emotions are completely real and no less valuable because they come from our material brains rather than imaginary immaterial souls. I believe that life is inherently valuable, full of grandeur, mystery, beauty and complexity, a thing to be cherished, protected, and lived to the fullest. I believe that, despite our limited lifespans, we have much to hope for and many goals worth achieving. I believe that being on our own, being part of the cosmos, ennobles rather than diminishes us and makes our conscious existence far more wonderful. I believe in the sublime. I believe that the most valuable and important things are not tangible. And I believe that atheism offers at least as much chance for happiness and fulfillment as any religion ever could, and that it is fully compatible with all the things - compassion, joy, love, hope and awe - that define humanity and make life worthwhile. In fact, I firmly believe that atheism makes life in general, and especially conscious, intelligent, thinking, feeling life such as ours, by far the most precious thing there is.

How do you viw existence?

EbonMusings writes:

The truth is far more inspiring and powerful than religious mythology. Knowing that the cosmos was not made just for us opens up whole new vistas of wonder and mystery - it makes it all the more surprising and amazing that we are here regardless. Our own existence, and our consciousness of that existence, is a thing so incredible and strange that it alone qualifies as the greatest miracle in our experience. Our life is a glorious mystery, and only by living with our eyes on the ground can we ignore this fact. When one truly understands this, one stands in awe of everything - and that is the spirituality of an atheist.

What is your definition is purpose?

Does life have ultimate purpose, according to an atheist? If that term is read to mean a purpose imposed on us by a higher power, then no. On the other hand, if that term is read to mean an overarching goal that motivates our lives and gives meaning to our endeavors, one towards which all our actions strive, then yes, an atheist can certainly have ultimate purpose. It is our freedom and our right to choose to do whatever gives us satisfaction, so long as we respect the happiness of others and their equal freedom to do the same. The only difference is that, while theists are restricted to the relatively narrow paths of purpose which their religion provides for them, an atheist is free to select their overarching purpose in life from the entire range of human endeavor. We do not have to do what the Bible dictates, what tradition advises, or what we think God wants us to - we can simply do, because we find it meaningful and it makes us happy.

love?

EbonMusings writes:

So what is this atheist's view of love? In my view, love is an evolutionary impulse, the result of millions of years of natural selection acting on our genes, subtly shaping us to instill within us the desire and the drive to reproduce and raise families and so begin a new round of evolution. In my view, love is an electrochemical phenomenon, the result of cascades of hormones and neurotransmitters exciting patterns of signaling in certain regions of the brain.

But in my view, love is also a sublime sensation, loftiest and most spiritual of the emotions, a feeling that can move us to produce humanity's most beautiful works of art and acts of compassion, or provoke us to our darkest crimes of passion. Simply put, it is one of the things that makes us human, and for all the chaos and heartbreak it causes, our lives would be much duller and less wonderful without it. It is one of the things that makes life worth living. It is the source of our most crushing miseries and our most blissful happiness; and despite all the struggles and conflict and failures, when it works it is the most beautiful and powerful feeling there is.

gain? loss? grace? charity?

EbonMusings writes:

An atheist could devote their life to community and charity work, volunteering at a local hospital, homeless shelter, retirement home, scouting organization, counseling center, or any other such organization. An atheist could serve their country or humanity in general by becoming a firefighter, paramedic, police officer, soldier, or any other career devoted to public service. An atheist could make it their mission to explore the planet's wild places - climbing mountains, sailing rivers, hiking through forests - or travel the world, visiting all its great cities and landmarks. An atheist could learn to play a musical instrument, learn to speak other languages, learn to play a game or sport, or learn a martial art. An atheist could find someone they love and care for and dedicate their life to making them happy - or they could do all of these things! Atheism leaves all these options open and more, but forces us into none of them; its essence is freedom, autonomy and self-direction. To an atheist, life is a wide-open horizon, and each person can set their own course and heading. All a person has to do is decide what they want to do with their life, what would make it meaningful for them, and then do that thing.

Who is your rolemodel, if you have one? Who do you look upto for advice? Who do you trust?

I'm not going to quote this because I feel that it's different for everyone and thus unique.

I emulate those who try to learn more; ever striving.
I try to follow those who always try to do the right thing.
I look up to those who realize the value and importance of existence and so try to help others give it their own meaning, if only they would realize that they could.

What do you do when life gives you trials?

Once again, not going to quote on this very subjective topic.

I try to work out the problem.
I try to be optimistic.
I try to help others once I have succeeded.

What do you think about death?

EbonMusings writes:

Compared to the great vastness of the cosmos, the ocean of deep time, my individual existence is a blip, a bubble in the foam on the surface of a flowing river. I am a momentary arrangement of atoms and molecules - an arrangement that lives and moves, to be sure, an arrangement that thinks, laughs, appreciates beauty, dreams, and loves - but a mere arrangement nonetheless, a transient state, an ephemeral gathering. Soon the blip will go out, the bubble will pop, the arrangement will dissolve, molecular bonds released by entropy. My consciousness will cease. But the molecules that once were me will still exist. The atoms that made up my body - iron, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, all the heavy elements forged in the crucibles of dying stars - will remain. Liberated from their temporary home, they will rejoin the rest of the planet, taking new shapes, finding new arrangements, becoming part of other life. I will become merged with everything.

I will become part of the trees that grow wherever my ashes are scattered, joining the ecosystem of the forest. I will be in the slow green heartwood of the trunks as they patiently tick off the centuries, in the buds that burst forth in spring and in the leaves that explode with color in autumn. I will be the sparkle of sunlight on the surface of a flowing mountain stream. I will sink into the earth and mix with the groundwater, eventually flowing back and rejoining the ocean where all life on this planet ultimately began. I will be in the waves that crash on the shore, in the warm sheltered tidal pools, in the coral reefs that bloom with life, and in the depths that echo with whale songs. I will be subducted into the planet's core and join the three-hundred-million-year cycle of the continental plates. I will rise into the sky and, in the fullness of time, become dispersed throughout the atmosphere, until every breath will contain part of me. And billions of years from now, when our sun swells and blasts the Earth's atmosphere away, I will be there, streaming into space to rejoin the stars that gave my atoms birth. And perhaps some day, billions of years yet beyond that, on some distant planet beneath bright alien skies, an atom that once was part of me will take part in a series of chemical reactions that may ultimately lead to new life - life that will in time leave the sea that gave it birth, crawl up onto the beach, and look up into the cosmos and wonder where it came from.

And the cycle will begin again.

I apologize if that was too long. However, if you simply skipped down to the bottom to find this, then try to read it in earnest. This is what both me and many other atheists believe. To us, a worldview of wonder and goodness is precious. What do you hold precious in your theism? Why?

I have not specifically read the Quran/Baghdad Vita/etc. as of yet, but I would like to and at the moment am mainly concerned with Judeo-Christian teachings (the focus of this site) which I am familiar with.

Its Bhagavad Gita. Baghdad is the capital of Iraq.


Ah, thanks.

Dr. Sing, please stop insulting me with words like 'son' and 'kid', as well as questioning my intelligence.

I'm trying. Put yourself in my shoes, I got asked the same question atleast 20 times and answered it as many! Questioning is easy. Answering makes you sweat. Anywho, since you asked politely, I'll promise to be nicer if you promise to act smarter.


Well, as long as we are both civil, I hope that we can keep this debate lively without any insults thrown- from either side.

Just one quick question, Dr. Sing. I'm planning on proposing a thread on this soon, but, just to try it out:
What would you do if it was proven that God does not and could not exist?

Happy Thanksgving,
T&U

Edited by Teapots&unicorns, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Pauline, posted 11-26-2009 11:26 AM Pauline has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Pauline, posted 11-30-2009 9:45 AM Teapots&unicorns has responded

  
Pauline
Member (Idle past 2075 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 72 of 73 (537687)
11-30-2009 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Teapots&unicorns
11-26-2009 9:30 PM


TU writes:

No, because good people can make mistakes. Do you know the word 'manslaughter?' It is the word used when killing was accidental and entirely regretted. Does that change the fact that it was killing?
Oh, and God lies, steals, and kills in the Bible. Is he a sinner?

No, it does not change the fact that it was killing. Sin is sin.

God does not lie or steal.

If someone's doing something wrong, then God shows up and tells them what their mistake is. If they continue, then God continues to warn them and if the object of their sin is causing harm then he prevents the violence. That wouldn't prevent- they could swing and rage all they wanted. Would that achieve anything? No. Would that realize the meaninglessness of their actions? Yes.

Try this with a few kids and let me know your results.

If you define the ability to sin as 'sinful,' then yes. However, I do believe that people also have huge capacity for goodness. Besides, who else are we to blame for that nature but God?

Wait, you said you were an atheist.

Where do you get this definition of sin?

The Bible.

Why can God not communicate with you?

Because sin removes all communication between God and man when he sin.

Why can't God help Dr. Sing become holy instead of turning away when Dr. Sing is helpless?

God helps me become holy and never turns away when I need Him. Ever. Its called sanctification. Even when I dirty myself with sin, He looks at me with mercy and when I repent, He forgives me and embraces me.

Why can't just God grant Dr. Sing nonexistence? I presume that without God there is no life or existence, so this would be the only logical idea, unless God wanted those people to endure agony.

Nonsensical proposition. ---No reply from Dr. Sing. Only an appeal to TU to think before he responds.---

Is it Dr. Sing's fault that she is a sinner?

An emphatic and resounding YES!

Can she control that?

Control is a tricky word. If you mean, does she have the ability refrain from sinning, then yes, she does. But she possessing the above ability only by the power of the Holy Spirit which indwells Dr. Sing.

If God created Man in his image, then man could not sin.

If man could not sin, them man would be no different from God. O.o According to the Bible, only God cannot sin. What is your point? Or do you have one? You don't understand "created in God's image", read up on it before further discussion.

Why could he not have created man this way?

Which way?

Why is God's nature "good?"

The Bible has an answer. Read it.

Your God thrives on fear. My society revolves around justice.

Actually, its the other way round. You got it right except you need to switch the objects in your sentences, but other than that, you seem to slowly be getting my points.

Why are his laws just?
Why did he choose them?
How are they 'good?'

The Bible has the answers. Read or listen to a few sermons from preachers like John Piper, John MacArthur and John Calvin.

What do you hold precious in your theism? Why?

I live my life to bring glory to God. Because God loves me and its the least I can do for Him.

I need an answer for this question:

you writes:

Oh I understand those all right; just in a sense of actually doing good in the world rather than praying to an invisible friend.

me writes:

Really???????? Wow, I'm interested. How does imputation apply to Atheism? How does propitiation? Atonement? Salvation? (And no, you cannot dodge this question.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-26-2009 9:30 PM Teapots&unicorns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-30-2009 7:22 PM Pauline has not yet responded

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 3226 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 73 of 73 (537762)
11-30-2009 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Pauline
11-30-2009 9:45 AM


TU writes:

No, because good people can make mistakes. Do you know the word 'manslaughter?' It is the word used when killing was accidental and entirely regretted. Does that change the fact that it was killing?
Oh, and God lies, steals, and kills in the Bible. Is he a sinner?


No, it does not change the fact that it was killing. Sin is sin.

So you fully support, if not the content, then at least the sentiment of the OT punishing women for having a menstrual period?

God does not lie or steal.

Genesis 13- God approves Abraham's theft of goods from the Egyptians and other countries.

If someone's doing something wrong, then God shows up and tells them what their mistake is. If they continue, then God continues to warn them and if the object of their sin is causing harm then he prevents the violence. That wouldn't prevent- they could swing and rage all they wanted. Would that achieve anything? No. Would that realize the meaninglessness of their actions? Yes.

Try this with a few kids and let me know your results.


So I have absolute power? Damn, that's great!

If you define the ability to sin as 'sinful,' then yes. However, I do believe that people also have huge capacity for goodness. Besides, who else are we to blame for that nature but God?

Wait, you said you were an atheist.


In order to give our position a decent chance, us atheists have to first point out any issues in the opposing camp's argument first.

So answer: If man can sin as a result of his nature and God gave man that nature, then isn't God blameworthy?

Where do you get this definition of sin?

The Bible.


Quote please.

Why can God not communicate with you?

Because sin removes all communication between God and man when he sin.


So God purposely 'cuts the cord' when man displeases him?

Why can't God help Dr. Sing become holy instead of turning away when Dr. Sing is helpless?

God helps me become holy and never turns away when I need Him. Ever. Its called sanctification. Even when I dirty myself with sin, He looks at me with mercy and when I repent, He forgives me and embraces me.


*Sigh* I was talking about us evil, miserable atheists: Where's God?

Why can't just God grant Dr. Sing nonexistence? I presume that without God there is no life or existence, so this would be the only logical idea, unless God wanted those people to endure agony.

Nonsensical proposition. ---No reply from Dr. Sing. Only an appeal to TU to think before he responds.---


---Still no reply from TU. Wondering if Dr. Sing will even make an effort to answer the question---

Is it Dr. Sing's fault that she is a sinner?

An emphatic and resounding YES!


So she directly and unconfusedly decides to have a tendency to sin?

Can she control that?

Control is a tricky word. If you mean, does she have the ability refrain from sinning, then yes, she does. But she possessing the above ability only by the power of the Holy Spirit which indwells Dr. Sing.


So she cannot control that by herself? Then it is not free will.

If God needs to interfere, then that is not a free decision on Sing's part.

If God created Man in his image, then man could not sin.

If man could not sin, them man would be no different from God. O.o According to the Bible, only God cannot sin.


Why would this be an undesirable outcome?
Why is sinning bad?
Why is God's will good?

Why could he not have created man this way?

Which way?


This way, i.e. holy from the start like himself.

Why is God's nature "good?"

The Bible has an answer. Read it.


Your response lacks substance. Quote it.

Your God thrives on fear. My society revolves around justice.

Actually, its the other way round. You got it right except you need to switch the objects in your sentences, but other than that, you seem to slowly be getting my points.


Really? Most religions I have seen focus their morality on pain of divine retribution, whereas us humanists base our morality on doing what we feel is right and fulfilling.

Why are his laws just?
Why did he choose them?
How are they 'good?'

The Bible has the answers. Read or listen to a few sermons from preachers like John Piper, John MacArthur and John Calvin.


Please provide quotes and an argument. No exporting the burden to your opponent.

What do you hold precious in your theism? Why?

I live my life to bring glory to God. Because God loves me and its the least I can do for Him.


So in other words, God created you to glorify him.
Doesn't this strike you as a kind of narcisstic, willful slavery?

I need an answer for this question:

No problem.

you writes:

Oh I understand those all right; just in a sense of actually doing good in the world rather than praying to an invisible friend.

me writes:

Really???????? Wow, I'm interested. How does imputation apply to Atheism? How does propitiation? Atonement? Salvation? (And no, you cannot dodge this question.


First off, nothing 'applies' to atheism; you must be referring to secular humanism which is a common moral code practiced among atheists. Atheism alone is simply a lack of a belief.

Propitiation- Waste of time to a nonexistent deity.
Atonement- A very good idea in the fact that it discourages further strife/violence in society.
Salvation- In the religious sense? It's all a load of malarkey.

T&U


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Pauline, posted 11-30-2009 9:45 AM Pauline has not yet responded

  
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