Hi jaywill, sometimes I get the feeling that you are dodging my posts or misunderstanding them intentionally.
Both may be true. I do sometimes misunderstand posts.
as for dodging, something like that may also be true. For example, I looked quickly through this post to see if anything was worth my time to discuss. I am sure you do that also.
It is not a matter of disrepect. But I will be selective. Some things are more worth my time to comment on.
But it's just a feeling, and I get over it. What I believe is really happening is that we are arguing at cross-purposes. This is common in this debate, isn't it?
At the present moment without some reminders I cannot recall exactly what we're talking about. Some of it will come back to me as I read on.
What I mean is, you aren't really here to attack the things I'm trying to defend, nor am I here the defend the things that you are trying to atack, nor vice-versa either way. We just happen to conflict sort of peripherally in a way that is interesting some times.
Anyway, don't ever take it personally, there's no malice involved. You are one of my favorite people to argue with here, because you don't have your head up your ass too far, your beliefs seem practical rather than abstractions, and you are capable of learning new things and/or reconsidering positions you may have been put in by the argument that don't help your real goals.
Now for the rough part
Okay, now for the rough part. But I'll choose what part I wish to spend time on. Sorry.
No, I'm not. I'm not being offensive at all. You are correct that many Buddhists are still in a state of idolatry.
Oh yes. You were the fellow that was talking about Allen Watts.
Continue.
So I took a Zen teaching that those sort of people tend to object to -- that the scriptures are spiritual toilet paper -- and translated it over into terms that apply to the local churches. The fact that you characterize it as "offensive" is my point. I'm not hurting you, I'm just typing. If you are suffering, then it is you that are hurting yourself.
Profound.
I didn't read your toilet paper comment too carefully. But if it is of interest to you Witness Lee once said something about one day will be able to throw our Bibles into the lake of fire. That was taken offensively by some people who heard it.
So if you general point has to do with some kind of idolatry involving the physical book of the Bible, I understand basically making an idol out of a book.
Having said that, it has absolutely nothing to do with anyone I have fellowshipped with in the church life for about 39 years. I have never seen such a case.
Now if someone has respect and reverance for a book and treats it that way, I do not call that idolatry. Like, I don't toss my Birth Certificate or Passport around carelessly. I think I want to move on from this matter to something more substantial.
This is a common argument among alleged Christians and supposed Muslims right now. Both decry idolatry, but each side characterizes the other as desecrating scripture.
Well, some Moslems exalt the Quran as a book to be on the same level as the Logos in Christian theology. In other words while they would not consider Muhammed as God incarnate, some of them practically make the "revelation" of the Quran that exalted.
I regard highly the Bible. I apply my regenerated spirit to touch the living Spirit behind the words of the Scripture. I don't worship the physical book binding or anything like that.
Forgive me. But I am not too interested right now in reading these websites.
I think my post was taking Allen Watt's critique of church history and applying some fair and balanced reaction to it. And I do think I was fair to him.
It does not take a great deal of insight or wisdom to point out that there is a lot of spiritually dead and non-vital activity in Christiandom. I don't think Watts is pointing out anything that has not been pointed out by orthodox teachers of the Scriptures.
But the church is glorious too. And leveling accusations against her is like Balaam attempting to curse Israel. No matter what hill he goes to or what angel he attempts to level his charges, God is likely to turn his harrassment into a blessing. Read Numbers 22 and 23.
While we may say from this angle and from that angle God's people look really bad, God sees them in the light of His effective redemption. Balaam's harassment was turned by God into a blessing. Very interesting.
So, while there is rebukes of God towards His people in abundance in the Bible, He will not always patronize critics who are essentially enemies of His work.
I am likely to consult servants of Christ who I know care if I want to learn of the places we Christians have fallen short. Put it this way, Allen Watts would not be at the top of the list because I think he is essentially an opposer to the New Testament in favor of his Zen beliefs and Buddhist ideas of salvation.
He has a vested interest in teaching that Jesus is dead.
Me:
Are you trying to make an accusation that the Bible is venerated as an physical object of worship?
You:
More of a mental object, but yes, you have the idea. If I post a proper bond, say twice the standard reprint rates, and print up a nice roll of Recovery Bible in soft 2-ply, the Blended Brothers aren't going to let me get away with it, are they? They aren't going to just take the money and consider their copyright properly intact, they are going to hound me to and fro until I stop it.
The only thing I read here that I feel is worth commenting on is your usage of the phrase in capital letters
"the Blended Brothers"
Now, I have noticed that there always seems the possibility of misunderstanding to those who may not heed the words of Jesus
"Be careful HOW you hear" (Luke 8:18).
I have heard the phrase blended brothers or that we need blending. This concept comes directly out of First Corinthians 13. For example:
"God has BLENDED the body together, giving more abundant honor to the member the lacked" (1 Cor. 13:24)
In this chapter on the Body of Christ and her functioning and cordinated members there is some talk from Paul about God BLENDING the members together.
Based upon this revelation of Paul Brother Lee spoke of the need in the Body and in the church life to be BLENDED together. So the blended brothers is not suppose to represent some official designation of particular people. There are no card carrying "Blended Brothers" of some the official clerical status of leadership.
Why should any of us who are functioning members in the church life not be blended? Should we not who are Christians then seek to be blended brothers and blended sisters in Christ's body.
So the innuendo of your paragraph is that there is some official league of
"Blended Brothers" as arbitrary tyrants, despots ruling a hierarchy in the local churches.
This comes across to me as paranoia.
I guess, if I do not misunderstand you, you are saying that some official group called
"THE Blended Brothers" would disapprove of you making toilet paper out of the Recovery Version.
Frankly, this kind of talk makes me wonder if you have too much time on your hands.
William Tyndale, who loved the Bible enough to die to make it known in English, didn't take this sort of a position.
You mean that you have contacted your so-called
"THE Blended Brothers" and they have specifically forbidden you not to make 2-plu toilet paper with the RcV ?
Most of the brothers and sisters I know laboring on the publication of the RcV have better things to do.
If say "They don't come up to the level Williamn Tyndale" OK, I can accept that. Did you not read? All things are ours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or William Tyndale or any other useful saint in the history of the church.
There is no need to plot one servant of Christ against another. We thank God for the function of all His servants. So Praise the Lord for the labors and testimony of William Tyndale. And we are also thankful for what God is doing through the distribution of the Bible today, especially the Recovery Version.
Virtually the entire first print run of his foreign edition was sold to the Bishop of London to be burned. This provided the money to pay off his debts and pay for several better printings, and had the side effect of making the book well-known as "forbidden fruit", vastly increasing its readership.
If you have some complaint with the publishers of the Recovery Version they do have an office of business affairs.
I mention the BB and founders and another "hot button" issue because there's been unpleasant litigation, hasn't there? And when someone like the Scientologists engage in such legal shennanigans to suppress information, we tend to recognize this as characteristic of idolatry.
Who is "we" ?
Does "we" include Gretchen Passintino who was a huge critic of the local churches, who has recently made a public statement that she was wrong in her evaluation?
Does "we" include Fuller Theological Seminary who has set the record straight that the local churches are firmly within the orthodoxy of Christian theology.
Does "we" include Hank Hannagraf of Christian Reseach Ministry, who has completely broken away from the founder Walter Martin's fierce opposition to the local churches? Hank Hannagraf, the new user of the generic title "Bible Answer Man" has also re-evaluated the local churches and according to his more thorough research has pronounced them well within orthodox Christian theology.
Maybe you all (the "we") need to be brought up to date on the state of contraversies about these matters. I won't link you because if you're really interested I am sure you can locate them.
Me:
Granted, I was at a Coptic meeting in which everyone present was suppose to kiss the Bible as it was being passed around. I didn't do it as a visitor.
You:
If I undertook to commune with some Coptic brothers in such a ritual setting, I would participate appropriately.
Wouldn't that be hypocritical? You just gave me down the country for idolizing the physical Bible. Make up your mind.
I can participate respectfully in a Coptic Christian meeting without kissing the book.
I would consider it symbolic, in a setting where such symbolism is appropriate, and think nothing of it. But once the ceremony was over, I wouldn't confuse the map for the territory.
You may handle the matter as you see appropriate. I will follow my own sense.
I nodded towards the Bible they were passing up and down. I did not feel that I needed to kiss it.
Anyway, I will stand before the Lord to give an account for my Christian life and you will give account for yours.
I've got no problem with bowing to saints or statues,
Who is asking you to bow in the church life under Brother Nee or Brother Lee's ministry?
or saluting the flag, or swearing on the Book. Actually worshipping limited objects, which is an act of will, is a different story. The sort of thing that points out real idolatry is not being able to burn crosses, print pictures of Muhammed, or wipe my ass with the flag, in a different and equally appropriate setting.
You spoke of unpleasant litigation. Now I would like to "dodge" some of your rather unpleasant sentances.
What's next after this dodge?
I know you take a lot of crap for that from hicks; you won't get any from me.
LOL!! Thanks !!
The best texts of the Hebrew and Greek have musical notation included right in them.
Really? Interesting. I use to have a cassette tape called Tilahah or something like that. It was suppose to be Hebrew for singing I think.
I really liked that music tape. I lent it to a sister whose husband had died. I never had the heart to ask for it to be returned. But I really liked thier singing of Scripture.
If you'd like to hear some of my own compositions send me an email at jjwilmore@netscape.net.
Do you have something specific to object to
Idolatry. Worshipping anything that you can hold in your hand, and anything that you can describe in limited terms. Elevating any finite person, place or thing to a position that is superior to your own direct experience of the eternal.
Me too. For John wrote:
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, n His Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God and eternal life. Little children keep yourselves from idols." (1 John 5:20,21)
Living in the Truune God is the true God and eternal life. Whatever usurps His place can become an idol. So I seek to live in the sphere and realm of the Him Who is true and His Son Who is true.
This is the true God and eternal life.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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