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Author Topic:   Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure.
Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 4 of 427 (539931)
12-20-2009 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by hooah212002
12-20-2009 3:43 PM


Immaculate deception
Hi hooah
So you say jesus is god's son: If there was immaculate conception, how does his lineage not go directly to god and stop right there?
Ok, so you say he IS god. Again, NO lineage due to him impregnating Mary himself. He is his own lineage.
If he is who you say he is, either joseph is his father, thus no immaculate conception, or his lineage is false.
Very valid points.
Additionally, before Christians can even begin to tackle this apparent conundrum, they should first consider the apparent origin of the virgin birth story:
Richard Dawkins writes:
"... This is one of several constructive mistranslations that bedevil the Bible, the most famous being the mistranslation of Isaiah's Hebrew for young woman (almah) into the Greek for virgin (parthenos). An easy mistake to make (think of the English words 'maid' and 'maiden' to see how it might have happened), this one translator's slip was to be wildly inflated and give rise to the whole preposterous legend of Jesus' mother being a virgin!)"
As for Jesus' success-rate at fulfilling messianic prophecy, I have to agree with Brian that it is appalling. Having said that, I don't expect any possible future contender to be met with success either. The things the messiah is meant to accomplish are all hostages to fortune anyway.
Edited by Briterican, : Added last bit to address OP directly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by hooah212002, posted 12-20-2009 3:43 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 12-20-2009 6:33 PM Briterican has seen this message but not replied

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 37 of 427 (540303)
12-23-2009 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Dawn Bertot
12-23-2009 10:36 AM


Nonsense begets nonsense
EMA writes:
Only someone not paying any attention at all reading the scriptures New or Old would make such a nonsensical statement.
The scriptures themselves are nonsensical. This becomes self-evident when enlightened individuals try to understand them rationally. Any "conclusions" you might come to about them are an enormous waste of energy and do nothing for the species as a whole.
EMA writes:
What is you rational (sic) from a Biblical perspective for considering the death burial and ressurection as perverse
What exactly is a "Biblical perspective"? Does it somehow entail that I first accept the Bible as literal truth? If so, I don't have a Biblical perspective.
As for a rationale (which is what I think you meant) for considering the death, burial and alleged resurrection as perverse - I myself can't get over the fact that it is all supposed to have been part of some divine plan. If it was a divine plan, then shouldn't all participants, including the crucifiers, be praised for taking part in the torture and ill-treatment? After all, without them none of it could have happened and we'd all be carrying around our sins still, instead of Jesus somehow having magically absorbed them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-23-2009 10:36 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

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Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 178 of 427 (542774)
01-12-2010 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Buzsaw
01-12-2010 1:58 PM


Re: Quote mining?
Buzsaw writes:
This is how you consistently show your ignorance on basic Bible scholarship, Brian.
Given what we know about Brian, and what we've seen of his understanding through his posts, this is an incredibly baseless accusation.
Buzsaw writes:
...the messianic prophecies of a global dispersion of the nation would come to pass
Tell me of a nation on Earth today that hasn't experienced a degree of global dispersion... We are all everywhere now.
Do you honestly believe in "prophecy", and if so, how do you sleep at night knowing that "the end is nigh?" If your answer is "because I know I will be raptured" - don't you feel any remorse or sympathy for all of us poor misinformed non-believers (or perhaps believers in another faith) who will burn in eternal hellfire?
Buzsaw writes:
...at a time when the new nation would be surrounded by hostile nations
You could pick virtually any country in Africa, and this statement would be true. Like all prophecy, it is vague enough that any number of scenarios could be described as fulfilling it.
Buzsaw writes:
and the nations of the world would be gathered into the region for war.
The nations of the world that are capable of flexing global influence are gathered for war anyway, at all times, via contingency planning and rapid response forces. Again, vague and not impressive.
Buzsaw writes:
We see also in retrospect that the prophets were right on, in that these end time events would come at a time when marks and numbers would replace gold and silver for commerce
Gold and silver was replaced by "marks and numbers" a long time ago mate. Are the end times running a little late? Is Yahweh busy rewriting the script?
Buzsaw writes:
at a time of significant increase in knowledge
Hmmm... that describes virtually any point in time in the last several hundred years. Vague and ambiguous.
Buzsaw writes:
at a time when a one world government would come into focus for consumation.
Sigh. What about the Ottoman Empire, or Rome? Don't these fit the bill?
Buzsaw writes:
If one rationally (I say rationally)corroborates all of this factual data
I'm re-reading your post again now... I still don't find anything in it that passes for factual data.
You write as though you are an educated individual. How then can you be so drawn into superstition and mysticism? Wouldn't your intelligence be more wisely used by dispensing with these fantastic notions of messianic prophecies and instead indulging in a hefty dose of reality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Buzsaw, posted 01-12-2010 1:58 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Buzsaw, posted 01-12-2010 7:35 PM Briterican has replied

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 202 of 427 (543011)
01-14-2010 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Buzsaw
01-12-2010 7:35 PM


Re: Quote mining?
Hi Buzsaw
Buzsaw writes:
Hi Briterican. I've been debating Brian a number of years more than you and likely been into the Bible long before either of you were born. If you think Brian's understanding of the Bible relative to this debate (abe: makes sense,) perhaps you could do a better job of supporting his position than he has done. You could begin with explaining how a forever throne could be limited to a contemporary era.
Fair enough. I'm afraid I'm not in a position to argue any position on this as I simply don't have enough information, and I'm finding it hard enough to follow what's being said here as it is. I'm sure Brian doesn't need my help though.
Buzsaw writes:
I pray for the day some EvC member will publically profess conversion to Jesus Christ as lord and saviour on this board or that some EvC Christian apostate will return to the fold. Perhaps you will be the first
Never say never eh - that is in reference to somebody doing this. I'm sorry, however, that I must politely decline the offer to be that somebody
As for the details on prophecy, I wasn't intending to put forward strawmen, I just don't think that everything fits as nicely and neatly together like you do. Additionally, and probably more importantly, I frankly don't accept "prophecy" as a real or even potentially possible thing. Prediction is one thing, because predictions can be, and often are, wrong. Prophecy is something else, and it lies outside the realm of rational thinking.
Buzsaw writes:
I have a high school diploma, 3 semesters at Bob Jones University and some USAF jet mechanic training. The rest comes from reading, googling, listening, researching, observing and above all, praying for wisdom, insite, knowledge and understanding of all things important. That's it. You might say I'm a 74 year old home schooler working to achieve the ultimate degree.
And it is comments like this that make me regret my disrespectful tone. I hope you'll appreciate that since it is debate, it can get heated, but you displayed the wisdom of your years (in terms of courtesy) in your polite replies to my inciteful ones.
---- now I should get out of here as I am completely off topic and I'm not adding anything to the discussion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Buzsaw, posted 01-12-2010 7:35 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Buzsaw, posted 01-15-2010 12:10 AM Briterican has seen this message but not replied

  
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