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Author Topic:   Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure.
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 391 of 427 (546790)
02-13-2010 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by purpledawn
02-12-2010 10:17 AM


Re: The Throne
Purpledawn writes:

The OT does not state that the messiah was to become God and reign in Heaven.

This is true, madear, but you need to understand when and where the prophecies have him ruling after he effects the salvation of the people via his vicarious suffering and death.

You need to wake up and smell wonderful aroma of the prophecy coffee brewing in these last days corroborating the fact that messiah will indeed soon stand on the Mt of Olives having descended from Heaven to rule all nations upon the earth from Mt Zion/Temple Mt.

Thus, the Lord's Prayer; "......thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by purpledawn, posted 02-12-2010 10:17 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-13-2010 10:44 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1274 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 392 of 427 (546804)
02-13-2010 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Buzsaw
02-13-2010 9:24 PM


Re: The Throne
in these last days

Exactly how long are these "last days" Buzz? Because since I was little boy, my father and grandfather were children, and their ancestors all the way back to St. John and Jesus' Assension into Heaven, people have been thinking that Jesus would return sometime in their lifetime. Now over 2000 years later, people are still repeating this same notion. 2000 years later!

When I was a Christian I remember almost on a weekly basis that preachers and televangelists of the likes of Hal Lindsey, Jack Impe, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn and other snake-oil idiots would spew out the stupidity that Jesus would return on such and such date in the year XX. And of course these predicted dates of Jesus return would come and go with no fainfare and of course no recantation or apologies by said televangelist frauds.

How many more generations are going to repeat this empty stupid mantra and make ridiculous and idiotic predictions? How many times do we have to demonstrate these people to be total frauds, lunatics and criminals? How much money are we going to flush down the toilet on these people that we could spend fighting global and local epidimics, fighting poverty, furthering science and medicine? How much more stupidity do we have to deal with? Really?!?

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Buzsaw, posted 02-13-2010 9:24 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Peg, posted 02-13-2010 11:48 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded
 Message 397 by Buzsaw, posted 02-14-2010 10:47 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded
 Message 398 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-14-2010 12:06 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3103 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 393 of 427 (546814)
02-13-2010 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by DevilsAdvocate
02-13-2010 10:44 PM


Re: The Throne
DevilsAdvocate writes:

How many more generations are going to repeat this empty stupid mantra and make ridiculous and idiotic predictions?

if people did more reading of the bible and less relying on the words of tele evangelists they would know the answer to that question.

Matthew 24:36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father"

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-13-2010 10:44 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-14-2010 12:36 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1274 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 394 of 427 (546820)
02-14-2010 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 393 by Peg
02-13-2010 11:48 PM


Re: The Throne
if people did more reading of the bible and less relying on the words of tele evangelists they would know the answer to that question.

Peg,

Thank you for the more sensible, honest and the Biblical answer (even if I am no longer a Christian).


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Peg, posted 02-13-2010 11:48 PM Peg has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1630 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 395 of 427 (546829)
02-14-2010 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 389 by Peg
02-13-2010 8:53 PM


Re: The Throne
quote:
heavenly position, heavenly kingdom, rulership over entire earth

Daniel 7:13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin


1. It is a vision
2. A son of man is just a man.
3. Doesn't speak of the planet.
4. The interpretation starting with Daniel 7:15 doesn't support your contention.


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by Peg, posted 02-13-2010 8:53 PM Peg has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1630 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 396 of 427 (546832)
02-14-2010 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by Peg
02-13-2010 9:02 PM


Re: King David is Dead
quote:
do you realise that you will never know because you refuse to let God speak.
You say that because I disagree with you. I let God speak and I read the text. You're assuming God wouldn't use someone to show you that your position is incorrect. Christians supposedly believe that God can use anybody to get a message across, whether they are a believer or not; but some Christians won't believe a correction can be from God until they themselves decide they want to change. It's the nature of man. We only change when we're ready to change.

quote:
When ever a scripture is posted that contradicts your view, you immediately claim the scriptures to be fraudulent. You do no allow the bible to explain itself because you refuse to accept that it is a legitimate and honest work.

Its not a very honest debate when you continually do this.


I haven't claimed a scripture was fraudulent. I've shown that your interpretations are inconsistent with the plain reading of the text.

I also haven't claimed that the Bible is not a legitimate and honest work. I've shown the reality that inspires the writing.

My battle is against Dogma, not God or the Bible.

1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

quote:
You want christians to explain and prove from the scriptures why they believe this or that, but when they do you say the scriptures they are using are false. You are not allowing an honest debate so this is my last post on the subject to you.
Again, I haven't said the scriptures you provided were false. I've said the scriptures you provided don't support what you're saying or don't say what you claim they are saying.

My disagreement isn't with the authors of the Bible. My disagreement is with what you claim the writers were saying. In this discussion the text is clear. God promises David offspring from his sperm. You continue to take that one word and change the meaning regardless of the surrounding sentence. You're taking the promise and changing it to suit your own dogma.

If you were keeping true to the text, you would be able to explain, as I do, how the scriptures or words do support your point. You're unable to do that. Notice that you've addressed nothing in my post.

You're not standing up for your reinterpretation of the word "seed". You know I'm right and the translations prove I'm right. Just admit you're changing the meaning of the word to fit a current dogma. At least be honest about it. You're trying to convince people to suspend the rules of language and common sense to accept that the text actually supports your position. That's difficult. Mine's easy. The text is right there in black and white.

I find many of the teachings in the old and new testament useful, but I'm not so disgusted with life or afraid of death that I have to wish for a new planet or eternal life. I try to take care of the world that God gave us and make every day count. If one doesn't respect the creation how can one respect the creator? If one can't accept the reality behind the Bible, how can one understand the real lessons?

IMO, dogma is a very tangled web of deceit that goes against common sense.


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Peg, posted 02-13-2010 9:02 PM Peg has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 397 of 427 (546855)
02-14-2010 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by DevilsAdvocate
02-13-2010 10:44 PM


Re: The Throne
DevilsAdvocate writes:

Exactly how long are these "last days" Buzz? Because since I was little boy, my father and grandfather were children, and their ancestors all the way back to St. John and Jesus' Assension into Heaven, people have been thinking that Jesus would return sometime in their lifetime. Now over 2000 years later, people are still repeating this same notion. 2000 years later!

Hi DA. I understand your frustration, much of which has been brought about by the failure of pastors, evangelists and teachers to corroborate all scriptures relative to the end times.

The prophecies which are not for novices are often missconstrued by novices who fail to adequately corroborate the prophecies so as to arrive at the truth.

I have been into the prophecies for over 60 years, since an early teenager when I became a Christian. I began by reading this book and that book on prophecy. It was not until I began corroborating the prophecies in the book, the Bible itself, that it became clear what to believe relative to the end times and the 2nd advent of Jesus, messiah.

As for all of those bumbleheads who over the centuries made claims that the end times were at hand, they simply did not know what they were touting.

RAZD presently has an ongoing thread on radiometric dating methodology. One of his arguments was corroborating the various methods of dating. Corroborated methods lend support, according to his claims, to the whole, including the questionable ones. Yet when harp about corroborating the harmonious whole of the scriptures, nobody seems to pay attention.

According to the corroborated prophecies, the following events must either simultaneously be fulfilled or be emerging into fulfillemnt. This is of paramount importantance. Had you understood this, perhaps you would still be a Christian.

1) Israel must have been dispersed globally and must have been restored as a nation. The more centuries that this failed to happen, the more likely it would be that it would indeed happen. But lo and behold, in 1948 (about the time I became a Christian) this phenomenal event was indeed fulfilled.

2. Jerusalem (the old walled city) must be reoccupied by Jews and Gentiles out. Lo and behold, in the 1967 Six Day War, Gentiles ran out of the city and Jews marched in. This, 28 long years after the restoration of the nation.

3. The itty bitty little restored nation must be smack dab in the middle of surrounding hostile nations. Check; happened

4. The nations of the world must be drawn into the Middle East and Jerusalem must be a bone of contention to all nations. Check; happening

5. Global government must be emerging into reality. Check; happening

6. Global monetary systems of marks and numbers must be emerging to replace traditional gold and silver coinage, etc. Check; happening, the last of circulated silver money being in the 1960s (about the time of the end of Gentile occupation of Jesusalem).

7. The gospel of Jesus must be preached globally as per the prophecy of Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 (known as the Olivet Discourse). Check. Happened; the Holy Bible being the all time best seller for decades etc.

Consider that at the time of Jesus's prophecy, Christianity was a new little religion, regarded by the establishment as a passing cult.

8. Knowledge and travel should increase phenominally as per Daniel 12. Happening big time, the industrial revolution, for the first time ushering in faster than horse and sail ship travel.

9. Climate change must be observed. Check; happening.

10. Christians hated and severly persecuted. Check; happening, especially in secular Communist, Muslim and some pagan nations

11. A speaking image, implemented globally so as for all peoples to see a single event (high tech, if you will) must be implemented as per Revelation 11 and Revelation 17, for examples.

12. Apostacy from Biblical principles, violence, disobedience to parents by children and moral decay must become globally increased. Check, big time.

These come to mind off the top of my head. These all must be either in place or emerging before one can empirically declare that the end time is indeed happening. Go and figure, DA and all ye other skeptics. Return to Jesus before it's too late, my friend.

When I was a Christian I remember almost on a weekly basis that preachers and televangelists of the likes of Hal Lindsey, Jack Impe, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn and other snake-oil idiots would spew out the stupidity that Jesus would return on such and such date in the year XX. And of course these predicted dates of Jesus return would come and go with no fainfare and of course no recantation or apologies by said televangelist frauds.

Lindsey and Van Impe, to my knowledge have never set specific dates, but they all have failed to coroborate all of the prophecies in ariving at conclusions. They make the same mistake I began using years ago; of reading one another's books instead of corroborating scripture itself.

DA writes:

How many more generations are going to repeat this empty stupid mantra and make ridiculous and idiotic predictions? How many times do we have to demonstrate these people to be total frauds, lunatics and criminals? How much money are we going to flush down the toilet on these people that we could spend fighting global and local epidimics, fighting poverty, furthering science and medicine? How much more stupidity do we have to deal with? Really?!?

According to Jesus's Olivet Discourse prophecy in Luke 21, the generation that sees what he prophesies will be the last; the most obvious the generation that sees the Jews march into the old walled city of Jerusalem and the Gentiles out, signs in the sky, etc. It appears, relative to that and what we observe that it will be sometime before 2050 and likely sooner. You can say, as you observe very bad times merging globally to further corroborate end time prophecies that you read it first at EvC.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-13-2010 10:44 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-14-2010 4:14 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 398 of 427 (546858)
02-14-2010 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by DevilsAdvocate
02-13-2010 10:44 PM


Re: The Throne
Exactly how long are these "last days" Buzz?

While I do not agree with all the details and specifics of what and when the kingdom will or has come already, in my opinion with Buz and Peg, we are still I believe brothers or sisters in Christ because we hold Christ up as the Messiah and son of God.

Its not necessary for me or them to get every detail correct, to be in harmony in Christ. If as they predict christ will set up some physical kingdom in Jeruselum, and I and my church of Christ brethren are wrong, it will not make a difference to our salvation. If we are correct and believe as we do, his kingdom is the Church and the restoration of Israel is to be brought about in and only through that method, it will not make a difference to thier salvation

If he wants me to hang around here 1000 years or so, Im cool with that as well.

Not to excite Buzz, but I belive he believes the things he does concerning the end times on the faulty premise that God has some specfic plans concerning Israel, beyond Christ present sacrifice and plan already in place, in the church/kingdom.

Israel gave up all rights to God, and he to them when they rejected his Son, as a Nation and a people. The remnant that will be saved can and only will be saved in Christ presently, not in some future state of existence here on earth.

Often times, specifically in Revelations numbers are used in a figurative sense as may be the case of the 1000 years, a new heaven and a new earth, etc.

It does not matter the position i believe you take in this connection, because i believe inside Christ as children of God we are given the right to get some things wrong, whether he or I.

the only reason I bring this point up is to demonstrate another that even if his prediction of 2050 or that time period fails, it doesnt mean gods word was mistaken, only him.

I would suggest as reading on this subject the neal-wallace discussion (Debate) on the 1000 years reign of Christ. the most comprehensive discussion on the topic in one place i have ever seen. Foe E Wallace is one of the disputants, if one wishes to look for it, on some website

regardless of the position you take in this connection, the NT makes it very clear, Christ was very sucessful in his ministry and much more successful in his death burial and ressurection. hardly a failure, providing a plan to bring all of mankind back to God in his kingdom

The New testament, specifically Paul states. "There IS NEITHER JEW, NOR GREEK, BOND OR FREE, MALE OR FEMALE, all are one in Christ."

God does not recognize them as a special people outside of Christ. the Church, which includes people of a Jewish, ethnic background are the chosen people now. The book of Galatians makes and drives this point home.

The deciples got so many things wrong amoung themselves, however, but he never rejected them as his follwers or children. Alot of brethren have alot of off the mark ideas.

heres is what you need to remember concerning God, time and his plans. God does things on his own time and for his own purpose. lets assume for a moment all of this is true, then consider that it has been TWO THOUSAND YEARS SINCE HIS DEPATURE, assuming for argument and biblical purposes you believe these things. YOU ARE EXACALLY CORRECT DA that one can literally look back through this amount of time and NOTICE that you can find alleged prophets that have predicted his return since that time.

Now what do all of these seers have in common, they all use the same scriptures with the surrounding events (of thier day) to interpret and determine a return of Christ. they use the events in thier time, from the present, all the way back to Christs days. many will use certain people, Hitler, Napolian, world war one, world war two and they are convinced that these must be the things to which the scriptures are refering. Most of the time they are wrong.

now there are three possiblites. Either the scriptures are not accurate and not true, or people are misrepresenting what God actually has in mind or has predicted, or all of these things we are experincing through the centuries are a culmination of those prophecies. Maybe, but the foolishness is trying to read specific events to determine a relative or specific time within ONES LIFETIME.

If it is true, God will do it on his own time table. Now the very real truth is that, that may happen one half our from now, or three thousand years from now. Next week or 2, 324 years from now. just pick a number.

i believe there is only one biblical pattern one may follow with any consistency to determine a possible return by God. the only pattern I see, is when, as In Sodom, the flood and many other examples, things got so bad and the majority of people refuse to repent, one may then, look to see Gods interaction in a direct way.

As long however, as people are being saved, people are living good lives and have not rejected God completely, God MAY allow things to continue. this I believe is the only pattern one may look at with some degree of accuracy.

Time is of NO consequence to God and I certainly would not let some persons failed prediction be any determining factor for belief.

Probably, 500 years from now, some persons will be discussing these issues and predictions, but one thing is certain, the Church/Kingdom will be right there with those perdictions. But it would not be of any great surprise (to me) if this event happend next week. One simply cannot know, no matter what they consider to be the interpretations of scriptures concerning these events. To me they waste so much time trying to interpret current events and pen a date of his return. Another thing to watch for in these instances, is thier scholarship, or the lack thereof. many of these fellas or gals are repeating what has been handed to them in thier doctrine

if one believes in such things in the first place, there is no need to believe one fellas predictions verses anothers unless they can demonstrate they are speaking through inspiration, another Biblical pattern.

Jesus said, "If you dont believe me for the words that I speak, THEN BELIEVE FOR THE WORKS THAT I DO, FOR THEY TESTIFY OF ME"

Paul said, "Remember I did not come to you IN WORD ONLY, but POWER AND DEMONSTRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT"

it only really matters if you believe in the scriptures as Gods word in the first place

The last days could actually last for another three or four thousand years, or not. it does not matter to and for the individual who will as a puff of smoke vanish, while the earth stands

EAM

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-13-2010 10:44 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 3:59 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1274 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 399 of 427 (546872)
02-14-2010 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by Buzsaw
02-14-2010 10:47 AM


Re: The Throne
Buzz writes:

According to the corroborated prophecies, the following events must either simultaneously be fulfilled or be emerging into fulfillemnt. This is of paramount importantance. Had you understood this, perhaps you would still be a Christian.

1) Israel must have been dispersed globally and must have been restored as a nation.

The conquering, occupation, and dispersion of Israelites by Babylon and Persia and then the Israelite’s eventual reoccupation of Palestine actually occurred before, during and right after many of these prophecies were made in the OT.

Israel since prehistoric times has been the most heavily contested pieces of global real estate in history. Why? Because it occupies a major portion of the fertile crescent of early civilization and is the major landbridge/crossroads/traderoute between three continents and the major civilizations of antiquity i.e. Greece, Egypt, Babylon, Phoenicia, India and the Far East. Due to the constant wax and wane of cultures in this habitable piece of real estate, many of these cultures were weak and subject to the muscle and might of other larger civilizations surrounding it.

As a result of this factors since prehistory, the land of Israel/Palestine has been conquered, occupied, destroyed and rebuilt over and over again. Jerusalem itself was attacked and rebuilt nearly 20 times before the birth of Christ. Therefore, it would be strange for any credible historian or sooth sayer to not predict that the people of Israel would attempt to reoccupy this land and rebuild their civilization.

Therefore this prediction of the reoccupation of Israel is not a result of some supernatural mystical ability to foresee the future rather it is the ability to extrapolate past and current events into the future. Additionally this is also a self-fulfilling prophecy since the Jewish people have been attempting to reoccupy there original homeland for nearly 2000 years. As a result, it was just inevitable that this restoration of Israel would eventually occur.

The more centuries that this failed to happen, the more likely it would be that it would indeed happen. But lo and behold, in 1948 (about the time I became a Christian) this phenomenal event was indeed fulfilled.

This is why it is a self-fulfilling prophecy and why a supernatural explanation is not required.

2. Jerusalem (the old walled city) must be reoccupied by Jews and Gentiles out. Lo and behold, in the 1967 Six Day War, Gentiles ran out of the city and Jews marched in. This, 28 long years after the restoration of the nation.

I see nothing in the scripture where anything more than the rebuilding of Jerusalem is predicted. And considering that Jerusalem had been rebuilt at least several times before this prediction was even made, it does not take a rocket scientist to make the prediction that Jerusalem would be rebuilt in the future.

3. The itty bitty little restored nation must be smack dab in the middle of surrounding hostile nations. Check; happened

How is this a prediction? Can you name a country in the world that has not been surrounded by other countries that are hostile or unfriendly to it?

4. The nations of the world must be drawn into the Middle East and Jerusalem must be a bone of contention to all nations. Check; happening

Subjective statement. Some think the USA is the back of contention to all nations. Some think Iran is. Some think North Korea is. It just depends on who is currently in the headlines.

Besides this is just a unsubstantiated conclusion you draw from scriptures. There is no where in scripture where it says “Israel is the back of contention to all nations”.

5. Global government must be emerging into reality. Check; happening

The Egyptians, Roman Empire, Chinese, Byzantine, Mongel Empire, Holy Roman Empire, and Ottoman Empires all accumulated more land and resources than any present day countries. All of them (and much of the rest of the world) considered themselves global governments.
So this globalization you talk about is just a reoccurring phenomena that has occurred and reoccurred throughout history. Again, this is not something new much less prophetical.

6. Global monetary systems of marks and numbers must be emerging to replace traditional gold and silver coinage, etc. Check; happening, the last of circulated silver money being in the 1960s (about the time of the end of Gentile occupation of Jesusalem).

There was more of a global monetary system during the Roman Empire than there is now. Again, nothing new.

7. The gospel of Jesus must be preached globally as per the prophecy of Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 (known as the Olivet Discourse). Check. Happened; the Holy Bible being the all time best seller for decades etc.

Self-fulfilling prophecy.

Consider that at the time of Jesus's prophecy, Christianity was a new little religion, regarded by the establishment as a passing cult.

Some still consider it a cult

8. Knowledge and travel should increase phenominally as per Daniel 12. Happening big time, the industrial revolution, for the first time ushering in faster than horse and sail ship travel.

Um, this has been occurring since prehistory. Again, this does not need a rocket scientist or prophet to figure out.

9. Climate change must be observed. Check; happening.

Global climate change has been occurring since the birth of this planet. Nothing new. Besides, I thought fundamentalists don’t believe in global warming

10. Christians hated and severly persecuted. Check; happening, especially in secular Communist, Muslim and some pagan nations

Imagine people of one religion/culture/ethnicity persecuting people of another religion/culture/ethnicity. I love how you leave out all the atrocities committed by God-fearing Christians throughout history. There is blame enough to spread to just about every religion/culture/ethnicity.

11. A speaking image, implemented globally so as for all peoples to see a single event (high tech, if you will) must be implemented as per Revelation 11 and Revelation 17, for examples.

The prediction of technological development? Really Buzz? How hard is this to predict? Now if the apostle John predicted the invention of the i-phone or the Internet I would be impressed.

12. Apostacy from Biblical principles, violence, disobedience to parents by children and moral decay must become globally increased. Check, big time.

Hmm, should we look back in history even to Christian countries and see the moral decadence that occurred? Have you ever heard of the Salem witch trials; Inquisition; persecution of Jews, Blacks, Chinese, Pilipinos, Hawaiians, Indians, Native Americans, Mexicans and other racial/ethnic/religious minorities by Christians and even Christian missionaries; etc, etc. Should we discuss how many popes and other religious figures past and present are embroiled in sexual perversion, polygamy, racial prejudice, promoting atrocities such as the holocaust, torture, lynchings and other immoral behavior? Really!?!

Talk about moral decay. We live in one of the most civilized societies in history to date. Do we have criminals and problems. Of course. However, I am so grateful to live in today’s FREE society than that of one three or four hundred years ago in which they burned people at the stake for disagreeing with there religious beliefs.

These come to mind off the top of my head. These all must be either in place or emerging before one can empirically declare that the end time is indeed happening. Go and figure, DA and all ye other skeptics. Return to Jesus before it's too late, my friend.

Give it up Buzz. Just count me as an apostate. Your arguments are unsubstantiated and not credible.

Lindsey and Van Impe, to my knowledge have never set specific dates, but they all have failed to coroborate all of the prophecies in ariving at conclusions. They make the same mistake I began using years ago; of reading one another's books instead of corroborating scripture itself.

You are so naďve Buzz or deliberately ignorant. Hal Lindsey predicted in his book “The Late Great Planet Earth” that Jesus would return in 1988. In 1997 he predicted on his TV show that Russia would invade Isreal in on 25 May, 1999, which would lead to Armageddon. He again predicted in his book “Planet Earth – 2000” that the year 2000 would be the year of the Battle of Armagedden. Since than he continues spewing out ridiculous predictions all the way out to 2048!?!

Van Impe predicted the Rapture and Second Coming in October 1999. Since then he has been continually revising his prediction and I think his latest one is in 2012 (imagine that with all the 2012 Mayan calendar conspiracy nuts).

According to Jesus's Olivet Discourse prophecy in Luke 21, the generation that sees what he prophesies will be the last; the most obvious the generation that sees the Jews march into the old walled city of Jerusalem and the Gentiles out, signs in the sky, etc. It appears, relative to that and what we observe that it will be sometime before 2050 and likely sooner. You can say, as you observe very bad times merging globally to further corroborate end time prophecies that you read it first at EvC.

I give up Buzz, you are a lost cause. You are as bad as Hal Lindsey and the rest of the snake-oil, prophetical nut jobs. Hopefully you will get some enjoyment and fun out of this life. I truly wish you the best and hope you can be cured of your mental disease.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by Buzsaw, posted 02-14-2010 10:47 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3103 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 400 of 427 (546936)
02-15-2010 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by Dawn Bertot
02-14-2010 12:06 PM


Re: The Throne
EMA writes:

If as they predict christ will set up some physical kingdom in Jeruselum

thats not my view...thats buzsaws view.

I take the view that the kingdom is already ruling in the heavens and has been since we entered the last days in 1914...this is when the gentile times ended and the bible calculation is very clear on that...to the month.

The kingdom with Christ as the head went into action at that time and removed Satan and his followers from the heavens as Revelation 12:7-9 says....which explains why society has deteriorated to such a degree as it is today.

I dont beleive we will ever see Jesus physically on earth EVER...he has a much better vantage point from the heavenly jerusalem which was identified by Paul at Hebrews 12:22
But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn (Jesus) who have been enrolled in the heavens

What is your view???

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-14-2010 12:06 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-15-2010 10:04 AM Peg has responded

    
joshua4missions
Junior Member (Idle past 3328 days)
Posts: 3
Joined: 02-01-2010


Message 401 of 427 (546944)
02-15-2010 8:20 AM


Jesus Christ was NOT a failure. He came to earth to die for you, and you say he was a failure. How can God be a failure if he came to Earth, allowed Himself to be crusified, be buried, and raise three days later over coming itself. Jesus defeated then and there. Jesus came and accomplished his goal, AND YOU CALL HIM A FAILURE, how dare you. He died for you so you can go to heaven when you die. He died because he loved you. He died so you don't have to spend eternity is Hell.
AND YOU CALL HIM A FAILURE!!! You need to fully realize what he did for you before you accuse him of anything.

joshua4missions


Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-15-2010 9:13 AM joshua4missions has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 402 of 427 (546950)
02-15-2010 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by joshua4missions
02-15-2010 8:20 AM


Jesus Christ was NOT a failure. He came to earth to die for you, and you say he was a failure. How can God be a failure if he came to Earth, allowed Himself to be crusified, be buried, and raise three days later over coming itself. Jesus defeated then and there. Jesus came and accomplished his goal, AND YOU CALL HIM A FAILURE, how dare you. He died for you so you can go to heaven when you die. He died because he loved you. He died so you don't have to spend eternity is Hell.
AND YOU CALL HIM A FAILURE!!! You need to fully realize what he did for you before you accuse him of anything.
joshua4missions

Some of us agree with you Joshua and if you think you have a mission here then by all means join in the battle to provide what you can. thanks

EAM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by joshua4missions, posted 02-15-2010 8:20 AM joshua4missions has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 403 of 427 (546954)
02-15-2010 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 400 by Peg
02-15-2010 3:59 AM


Re: The Throne
I take the view that the kingdom is already ruling in the heavens and has been since we entered the last days in 1914...this is when the gentile times ended and the bible calculation is very clear on that...to the month.

The kingdom with Christ as the head went into action at that time and removed Satan and his followers from the heavens as Revelation 12:7-9 says....which explains why society has deteriorated to such a degree as it is today.

I was raised in the Church of Christ and I remember one evening at about age 13 or 14, I happened to pick up a book and I sat down and read most if not all of the Nichol-Bradley debate on the thousand year reign of Christ and when and where the kingdom was established. I was so impressed with bro C.R Nichol's knowledge and debating skills I was hooked on the the debate method and have never moved on that position that the kingdom was established on the day of pentecost, when all the Apostles were together as the Lord had instructed.

As I said earlier, I think within Christ people can and do have varying views on this subject and many others. Early on I was a young fire eater about making details matters of fellowship and I do still believe there are things that do constitue matters of fellowship, Im not sure this is one of them. Some would say yes others would say no.

I think if we believe in him as the Son of God and as the Savior and messiah, we probably have fellowship one with another. Of course one would need to know what another that claims to be a Christian believes to have complete fellowship.

If indeed I am wrong and he does indeed have plans to establish himself and a physical kingdom at the end, Im cool with that as well. its all about God and eternity anyway

Interesting though, why 1914, what do you beleive happened on that date to effect the establishment of the kingdom

I dont beleive we will ever see Jesus physically on earth EVER...he has a much better vantage point from the heavenly jerusalem which was identified by Paul at Hebrews 12:22
But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn (Jesus) who have been enrolled in the heavens

We would say the hebrew letter and its author is describing the Church. its important to remember a statement such as this is involved in much symbolism, while it is all literal in substance and application as to what God has done in Christ, terms are used to describe that action, "heavenly jerusalem, assembly, congregation, enrollment, etc, etc.

however your view of this passage desribing an action in heaven is EQUALLY TRUE. its all symbiotic in nature and purpose.

"and whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatsoever loose on earth will be loosed in heaven"

here in this verse Christ describes exacally what I am saying. its all symbiotic and its all about God and his purposes and plans. people simply get caught up with terms, times, events and dates.

buzz maybe more correct, you may be more correct or I may be concerning these issues. getting some things inccorect hardly classifies Christ as a failure, as some may suggest or like to imply

this statement by christ has very little to do witht he Apostles and thier authority, even though thats involved, than it does about the WORK of God in heaven and earth

Gods ACTIONS and what was accomplished is much more important that what term or symbolism he uses to describe that action.

As far as Christ ever setting foot on earth again, one is again involving themselves in anthropomophic symbolism. When Christ said "low I am with you even to the end of the earth", It was meant as an anthropomorphic statement, to assist humans in thier struggle that he was leaving, from thier perspective in the first place. he needed to reassure them he would still be with them

Of course Christ went nowhere, literally, he has always been here and never left or came in the first place, he's simply always been everything and everywhere to start with and the fact that he makes himself visible to us at this point or that, gives the MEANING TO US. the language we see in the scripture is there to assist a finite perspective.

If you remember Christ stating that the "Kingdom of heaven is at hand". Well any person could point to almost any point in the Gospel or thereafter and say this is that point or that is that point.

the turth of matter is that there is really no single point that the kingdom was not already in existence, if Gods rule was already in place. The truth of the matter is that Christ is expressing a moral principle by using that term kingdom. The relevance and moral principle was a renual to Gods teachings and principles and that is the message he trying to convey

certainly there are times where he does things differently than he had before, but the issue is ALWAYS PRINCIPLE AND MORAL

Romans 14:17

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

does this mean there is not a physical place the kingdom exists, NO. it simply means the kingdom is both and all at the same time

this is why i was stating earlier that to discuss where and when the kingdom was establish involves itself in much firgurative language. Literally the kingdom was established before the foundation of the world, Christ(God) was king beofre any physical actions were taken here or there.

What is involved in Gods actions is WILL and INTENT, to mans mind for the purpose of decisions to made by mans freewill in a correct response to him.

The rest, the terms, the symbolism, the verbage is secondary to this fact and often gets in the way of understanding Gods ultimate purposes and inhibits fellowship with eachother.

Think about it. Does it really matter whether Jesus will literally set foot on a place he already IS and place he is already at, even if he is invisible to us presently.

Was it Elijah ( I cant remember presently) that said to God, "Open thier eyes Lord", so that the other person could see the host of angels that were already in thier presence.

Terms are relative and its all just about God, except for the thoughts brought about by freewill, the only thing actually in our control

I know this is a bit over the top, buts its helped me avoid alot of needless discussion, where people get hung up on terms and ideas

But anyway why 1914?
EAM

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Edited by EMA, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 3:59 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 6:21 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3103 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 404 of 427 (547005)
02-15-2010 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by Dawn Bertot
02-15-2010 10:04 AM


Re: The Throne
EMA writes:

Interesting though, why 1914, what do you beleive happened on that date to effect the establishment of the kingdom

Well its not that the kingdom was 'established' at that time, but that the Kingdom went into 'action' at that time and began it reign. Until this time, the kingdom was only active upon the christian congregations.

1914 marked the end of the gentile times. The Gentile Times is the period referred to as “the appointed times of the nations.
Jesus spoke of these times in Luke 21:24 [b]“Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.”[/qs]

Now to understand what was trampled upon we look at Jerusalem itself.

The Cyclopaedia by M’Clintock and Strong say: “Jerusalem had been made the imperial residence of the king of all Israel; and the Temple, often called ‘the house of Jehovah,’ constituted at the same time the residence of the King of kings, the supreme head of the theocratical state, . . . Jerusalem was not, indeed, politically important: it was not the capital of a powerful empire directing the affairs of other states, but it stood high in the bright prospects foretold by David when declaring his faith in the coming of a Messiah [Psalm 2:6; 110:2].”—Volume IV, page 838.

So Jerusalem represented Gods rulership in the earth. This gives us a clue as to what the gentile times would mean....they would mean that for an appointed time, Gods rulership on earth would not be represented.

but Jesus words show us that those 'appointed times' would come to their end and thus Gods rulership would once again sprout.

The calculation for these appointed times is easy. They began when the last king of Isreal was removed from the throne by Babylon in 607bce. From that time on, no king sat on Jehovahs throne in Jerusalem and jerusalem itself was subjugated by the gentile nations.

Revelation 12:6 & 14 & Daniel 4 tell us the length of time as 2,520 calendar years. (and im happy to give more details for this number if you like)

607 B.C.E. to 1 B.C.E. = 606 years

1 B.C.E. to 1 C.E. = 1 year

1 C.E. to 1914 C.E. = 1,913 years

607 B.C.E. to 1914 C.E. = 2,520 years

We know that 1914 was a turning point in human history and things have never been the same since. This is due to entering the period known as 'the last days' a time of terrible woe for the earth. This is because its the point where the Kingdom of God went into action against Gods enemy Satan as Revelation 12:7-9 says
7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha‧el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth...12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”


This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-15-2010 10:04 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-15-2010 7:34 PM Peg has responded
 Message 411 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-16-2010 10:56 AM Peg has responded

    
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1274 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 405 of 427 (547016)
02-15-2010 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by Peg
02-15-2010 6:21 PM


Re: The Throne
Revelation 12:6 & 14 & Daniel 4 tell us the length of time as 2,520 calendar years.

Revelation 12:6 writes:

The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Even if 1 day=1 year where do you get 2,520 years? And how do you know when the "women fled to the desert"??

Revelation 12:14 writes:

The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

If a time = 1260 days/years then a
times and a half a time = 1260 + 630 = 1890 days/years
this still doesn't = your 2520 years

And I see absolutely no dates or correlation of any kind with 2520 years in Daniel 4. So please elaborate. Seems to me you are just pulling dates out of your ass.

We know that 1914 was a turning point in human history and things have never been the same since.

You know how many "turning points in history there have been"? Are you serious that you are using the beginning of WWI as the the basis for your prophecy? How about the beginning of WWII? 9/11? The fall of the Roman Empire? The Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD? The Battle of Hastings (which was instrumental in the consolidation of the English culture and birth of England as world power in 1066)? The issuance of the Magna Carta in 1215 (which led to the rule of constitutional law present in nearly every democract country in the world today)? The invention of the printing press in 1440? Christopher Columbus discovery of the New World in 1492? The beginning of the Reformation in 1521? The United States declaration of Indepedence in 1776? The birth of the United Nations in 1945? The rebirth of the nation of Israel in 1948, etc, etc, etc.

The Revelation of His Holy Noodleness writes:

And I saw when the FSM opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of boiling water, one of the fourth beasts saying, Come and watch me cook.

And I saw, and behold a white spaghetti horse: and he that sat on him had a one pound box of spaghetti; and a crown of garlic was given unto him: and he went forth cooking, and to cook.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

And there went out another horse that was red spaghetti: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take non-pastafarians from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great linguini sword.

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black spaghetti horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of meatballs in his hand.

And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of rigatoni for a penny, and three measures of parmesan for a penny; and see thou hurt not the beer and the wine.

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

And I looked, and behold a pale spaghetti horse: and his name that sat on him was ramen, and soba followed with him. And power was given unto them over the noodley part of the earth, to cook with water, and with oil, and with fire, and with the pastafarians of the earth.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 6:21 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 10:07 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded
 Message 410 by Iblis, posted 02-16-2010 9:42 AM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

  
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