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Author Topic:   An Evolutionary Basis for Ethics?
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3922 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 27 of 57 (540530)
12-26-2009 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by ATheist
12-25-2009 3:15 PM


"people"
When I asked them if animals share the same ethical principles as humans, they scoffed resoundingly. Their reasoning behind that apparently laughable contention is that evolution has no "goals," so when an ape drowns trying to save a non-familial ape in a moat it is not a sacrifice as we interpret it. They argued that an ape does not have the ability to know that they may die if they try and save another ape. I responded in saying that "well, if the ape doesn't know that he may die, how does he know the other ape may die?" They said that apes simply don't have the concept of death.
I'm guessing you don't know much about Koko then.
She's indubitably capable of abstract thought. This first came up when she created her own sign for feces, which was a combo "toilet-smell". There was still a lot of doubt at this point, basically the objection was that she might just be talking about the smell itself. But then she started referring to a researcher that she didn't get along with as "toilet-smell-scientist". She was calling him a shithead !!!
She's proceeded a long way since then. She also tends to make puns, based on her study of human sounds. She refers to humans as "nipple" for example, because the spoken word sounds similar to "people" to her. She has worked with other gorillas, some of whom sign and some of whom do not. She does not refer to the non-signers as "not-speaking", the way she does her pet cats, but rather as "speaking-not-scientist". This seems to indicate that gorillas have a language of their own. When questioned about this, she says it is "closed-box", meaning, a secret.
She has a conception of the future; but unlike humans, who think of it as being ahead of them, because it is where we are going, she thinks of the future as being behind her, because she cannot see it. One of the gorillas she worked with, Michael, after learning sign was apparently able to tell the story of his mother's death at the hands of poachers. They do understand death; gorillas in the wild have a simple but touching funeral ritual, involving members of the family getting together and sharing their grief while the body sits in state.
Koko is currently working in Africa, teaching sign language to human children, not only those who are deaf but also those who wish to work with the deaf. She is a good teacher, encouraging kids who do well and utilizing them to help her with those who fall behind. She has expressed the idea that while her scientists and students are "not-gorilla", they are "like-gorilla". In other words, we are people too.
No one has had the heart to explain to her about "bush meat", however.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by ATheist, posted 12-25-2009 3:15 PM ATheist has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3922 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 49 of 57 (541412)
01-03-2010 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by jasonlang
01-03-2010 9:09 AM


People and Fairness
Maybe it doesn't make sense in the short term, looking at energy in-energy out, but perhaps a sense of fairness i.e. getting your "fair share" has long term evolutionary benefits for a social animal, i.e. those who've settled for second best have had less offspring overall. In a longer study, though, they might have caved if the cucumber was the only sustenance on offer.
That's an interesting theory. I wouldnt want to be the one to test it, though.
Authorities try to determine how chimps got free to attack | The Seattle Times
St. James and LaDonna Davis raised Moe the chimp as their son. That was the word they used to describe him, and that was how they treated him like a hairy, rambunctious child who was a pampered member of the family.
They taught him to wear clothes, to take showers, to use the toilet and to watch TV in their West Covina home.
On Thursday, the day they marked as Moe's 39th birthday, their love for the chimp nearly cost them their lives.
The Davises were visiting Moe at an animal sanctuary in eastern Kern County where he had been banished in 1999 after biting a woman when they were attacked by two other chimps and brutally mauled.
St. James Davis took the brunt of the attack, the ferocity of which stunned paramedics.
"I had no idea a chimpanzee was capable of doing that to a human," said Kern County Fire Capt. Curt Merrell, among the first on the scene. "It looked like a grizzly-bear attack."
Davis, 62, who remained in critical condition yesterday, was badly disfigured. According to his wife, he lost all the fingers from both hands, an eye, part of his nose, cheek and lips, and part of his buttocks. His foot was mutilated, and his heel bone was cracked. Authorities also told The Associated Press that his genitals were severely mauled.
Chimps. Don't. Cave.
Officials said they have no idea why the chimps attacked the Davises. But ape expert Deborah Fouts, director of the Chimp and Human Communication Institute at Central Washington University, said the attack may have been prompted by an emotion that chimps may share with humans: jealousy.
"Chimpanzees have a real sense of right and wrong and fairness and unfairness," Fouts said. "It sounds like people were showering a lot of attention on Moe, birthday cake and the like. ... Perhaps the other chimps were jealous of Moe."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jasonlang, posted 01-03-2010 9:09 AM jasonlang has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jasonlang, posted 01-03-2010 12:20 PM Iblis has not replied

  
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