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Author Topic:   One's Own Theory
Taq
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Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 23 of 46 (576753)
08-25-2010 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tram law
08-25-2010 12:28 PM


Well, why does any belief have to have empirical evidence for it to be true?
How can we determine what is true and what is false if not through empirical evidence? How can we get from belief to knowledge except through objective evidence and reasoning?
If something becomes true by the mere act of uttering it then what good is truth?

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Taq
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Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 30 of 46 (576781)
08-25-2010 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Tram law
08-25-2010 2:54 PM


Well, let's take something like say patriotism. We can take a claim like "there are people who are very loyal to their country".
So, why would this need empirical evidence to be true?
Why wouldn't it require empirical evidence?
Let's take something like, "Mickey Mouse flies UFO's."
Wouldn't you want empirical evidence before you accepted this as true? Or would my simple utterance of the claim make it true? What if I pointed to a book where someone else makes the same claim, but with no evidence. Would that make it true?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 31 of 46 (576784)
08-25-2010 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Tram law
08-25-2010 3:14 PM


The problem is with the statement of:
In order for something to be true it must have empirical evidence to support it.
There is a problem with that statement. We know that Einstein's Theory of relativity is true (in a tentative scientific way). We now know that Einstein's theories have always been true even when we had no evidence that they were true. Paraphrasing Stephen Jay Gould, apples did not suspend themselves in mid air waiting for experiments to determine whether Newton or Einstein were right.
The question is how we KNOW that something is true? How do we determine whether something is true or not? How do we go from belief to knowledge? Do we use our own subjective preferences to judge what is true or not? Or should we use objective evidence and reasoning? Can you think of any bit of knowledge that is based on belief alone?

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 Message 32 by Tram law, posted 08-25-2010 3:53 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 35 of 46 (576790)
08-25-2010 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Tram law
08-25-2010 3:53 PM


Well, first you'd have to define knowledge.
Certainty gained through verification.
For me there's personal knowledge from experience as well as book knowledge or education.
Both experience and books are not the same as belief.
But the thing is sometimes personal knowledge can be just a belief.
Can you give an example? If I believe that the Earth is a cube does it become knowledge because I believe it?

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 36 of 46 (576791)
08-25-2010 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Huntard
08-25-2010 3:58 PM


There are people, some of them are loyal to their country, everyone can see that.
We could make this more empirical. We could set up a test where someone was offered one of two choices. They could have 100 dollars or denounce their country. Only the interviewer would be privy to each individual's choice and their identity would be kept private so there are no social ramifications. People who forgo personal gain in order to not disparage their country would be considered loyal.

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 Message 33 by Huntard, posted 08-25-2010 3:58 PM Huntard has replied

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 Message 37 by Huntard, posted 08-25-2010 4:06 PM Taq has replied
 Message 39 by Tram law, posted 08-25-2010 4:18 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 42 of 46 (576802)
08-25-2010 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Tram law
08-25-2010 4:18 PM


I'm not sure that would be empirical, because when there are no ramification to an action many people will choose to do what is convenient.
We would have to agree beforehand that those who did not take the money were loyal. We would predict that if there were loyal people that some of the people tested would not take the money. We then test the hypothesis, and the results of the experiment would be independent of either of our beliefs.
There was also a famous test that bore this out. I can't remember the proper name of it, but it had people who would apply electrical shock to people if they were told to do so. However, it wasn't real electricity and the person hooked up to the machine receiving the "shock" was acting in a lot of pain. The people were told that there wouldn't repercussions if they used this device to discipline somebody for giving a wrong answer.
This experiment demonstrated, empirically, that people will ignore their own judgement if someone in authority tells them to.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 43 of 46 (576803)
08-25-2010 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Huntard
08-25-2010 4:06 PM


I don't know about that test, for 100 dollars, I'd denounce anything, certainly for this kind of test. Like that really means anything.
It means that you are not a loyal person.

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