What was God’s plan behind Creation and why does he need one?

Could it be that god didn't exist until he created something to recognize his presence?I have a hard time believing god sitting around for eons doing nothing. Maybe playing some pool with angels or something, then getting a crazy idea "hey, I'll create something in my image maybe some more of what I already have up here. I'll call it "man"" then putting the restraints that ARE upon us?I can see it now:God: "dammit Eve, you just fucked humanity"
Adam: "nice going ya dumb broad"
And so goes the story of women being the downfall of man.

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Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl SaganFor me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

Note that Eve and Yahweh are the same word. Here's a nice bit from Dr. Lao elaborating on the pun Tao Te Ching - Translated by J. LeggeLeaving that aside for the moment, let's look at Hesiod in the Genealogy of the Gods Omacl Payday Loans - 100 to 5,000 - Paid in 15 Minutesand more familiarly in Works and Days Bad Credit Loans — Omacl.co.uk Fund Loans Every 30 Minutes Hope. Pandora brought the jar with the evils and opened it. It was the gods' gift to man, on the outside a beautiful, enticing gift, called the "lucky jar." Then all the evils, those lively, winged beings, flew out of it. Since that time, they roam around and do harm to men by day and night. One single evil had not yet slipped out of the jar. As Zeus had wished, Pandora slammed the top down and it remained inside. So now man has the lucky jar in his house forever and thinks the world of the treasure. It is at his service; he reaches for it when he fancies it. For he does not know that that jar which Pandora brought was the jar of evils, and he takes the remaining evil for the greatest worldly good--it is hope, for Zeus did not want man to throw his life away, no matter how much the other evils might torment him, but rather to go on letting himself be tormented anew. To that end, he gives man hope. In truth, it is the most evil of evils because it prolongs man's torment.-- NietzcheEdited by Iblis, : And also there is an Assyrian legend of a woman with a fish ...

Hello Iblis,
Yes I will now try to expand a bit on my idea of love being God's reason for creation.But first just a quick aside. My wife is Indonesian, and when she spotted your name she commented that in Bahasa Indonesian, Iblis means the devil or satan. I checked our Indonesian-English dictionary and sure enough it did mean this. Is this intentional irony, or just an unintended coincidence? Yes, I was hinting at this in my opening post, though not exactly in this context. I was suggesting that God experiences pleasure. We are created in his image, we experience pleasure, therefore God experiences pleasure. (Though the term Joy is used much more in the Bible than pleasure, and in a positive sense, whereas pleasure is more often used in the negative ie 'a fool finds pleasure in evil conduct' Prov 10:23.) So God may have envisaged bunny rabbits, and took pleasure in them before he created them, and created them for us to also find pleasure in. Yes I agree. But It's a tad difficult to explain this in a logical, reasoned form, to someone who may want an answer to 'why did God create' to support the very existance of God.But I will try. This verse and others (ie John 1:3)suggests that the universe was made by Jesus, through Jesus, and with Jesus's sacrifice for us pre planned. This verse suggests that love exists within the trinity, and that Jesus chose to die for us. In this verse Jesus tells us that the greatest demonstration of love is to die for someone, as Jesus himself did. He also commands us to do the same. Finally we get to one of the most quoted verses. God loves us so much that he sent Jesus to die for us. God loves Jesus because he lays down his life for us. God is in Jesus & God is Jesus, and Jesus is God(John10:30). The universe was made by Jesus & because of Jesus, and who is a demonstration of God's love.I hope this goes some way to explain my Idea.

It's even worse than that. God actually sat around for an infinitely long time doing nothing at all. Try to wrap your head around that one!

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I hunt for the truthI am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

Hi MR, sorry about the delay, I've had many patients this week. So what you imply is that Yahweh requires some people to go through pain and torment for some reason that is inexplicable to humans, but not every one? I'm not sure that this is required. The issue that I have is why Yahweh puts people through such torment. He does not do it to everyone; some people have pretty good lives. I, for one have known agony only once or twice in my life and have many advanteges that other people in creation have no access to.Does that mean Yahweh likes me more or I have less to learn than people who die in agony of ebola? If I may, I believe you miss my point. I'm interested in why Yahweh chooses to put some people to such extreme discomfort that it kills them.Again to look to myself; I've never been put to such agony that it has killed me: does this mean I already know what the less fortunate have to die in agony to learn? Getting burnt is something that you do to yourself and subsequently learn never to do it again (which is a very good thing, I think). This is how organisms learn and adapt.The problem I have is Yahweh set up the whole situation for Adam to make his error. He made it difficult of Adam not make his error. Would a good parent leave a chainsaw near an inquisitive child, especially when you know for a fact that the child would use it?Yahweh was a negligent parent. The whole rigmoral with Jesus was because Yahweh needed to correct an error he himself put into motion. Even when correcting his error Yahweh can only think in terms of pain and suffering.I've never been ran over by a car. I did not need to be ran over by a car to know what would happen.If ones child is ran over by a car does this become a learning experience? Yes of course it does if it is handled right by the parent.Did Yahweh do this to Adam? Did he turn Adam's error into a positive learning experience?No.Vengful Yahweh cursed all of humanity for ever after. Can Yahweh only think in terms of suffering?This is not the act of a good parent.

Hi MR As you know, I hope to start a new thread in the next couple of days on the subject of good and evil. It is the meaning of those words "good and evil" that I want to explore. You may wish to start thinking about it.I don't normally like to pick people up on their spelling, but as you use the word "perhaps" in so many of your posts, you may care to note it is spelt like that and not "perhapps".

Hi Huntard, Where do you get that idea from?Time did not exist until man invented a way to measure duration/existence.Until then there was only duration/existence.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Not this again....Please everyone:

Hi MR, Where do you get the idea from that God's reason for creation was love? The purpose of everything was that man should seek the Lord and find Him.That was God's plan.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

I think the point is that He could so all that without torturing humanity.

Hello Larni,
Don't worry about any delays. I was glad to have some more time to reply to others.I'd just like to say, that your overall concern about suffering is one that is shared by myself and many other christians, and is known as 'the problem of evil'. Yes it is a problem for us, and as I have said before, I have agonised over this very issue. But I still believe that God loves us. You may wonder how people can still love such a God who puts so many others through torment to the point of death. There is a couple of things to say about this. Yes God does cause some to suffer and others not to. In some respects you can say that God has the right to do whatever He pleases with us, as He made us & can destroy us, and who are we to say otherwise. But one question you should perhaps ask is, why does God choose to be merciful to any? God told Adam that if he disobeyed Him and 'eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.'(GEN 2:17) But God did not kill Adam straight away like He could have, in order to satisfy his justice. He chose to show mercy instead, and cover Adam's shame with clothing.Yes God does allow some to suffer, but what is remarkable is He also chooses to show mercy to some, and that is ultimately His choice, and only He knows why. Read Mathew 20:1-16 about workers being hired to work in a vineyard at different times during the day, but all receiving the same pay. In verse 15 Jesus says 'Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?' The Jews rightly believe that 'if disaster befalls a city, has not the lord caused it?'(Amos 3:6). They also believe that if a person is suffering in any form, they are being punished by God because of sin. But look at the next verse where Jesus says: He says no. That people who suffer are not 'greater' sinners than everyone else. But they still perished because of their sins.The next legitimate question might be; that may be fine for adults but how could a baby be capable of sin that would warrant them being punished to death? This one is a tough one to understand, but apparently we have inherited Adams sinful nature, and are sinful from birth. You could even go back as far as conception. Don't ask me how this is so, as I don't know. But if one studies child behaviour, you might conclude that bad behaviour is more likely innate than nurtured.God has only one punishment for any sin, no matter how small, and that is eternal separation from Him, which involves death. The Bible tells us 'for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). That God allows any human to live at all, shows mercy and grace.Here is a quote from Douglas Wilson in his book 'Letter from a christian citizen', which I'll finish up with.

The problem is that this man (just like your god) is being unfair. That he created us is no reason to torture us, is it?Is your justification for his miss treatment of humanity really 'because he is in charge and we can't stop him'? Would any child say that to their parent, I wonder? An act of mercy would have been to forgive him. Not punish him and his progeny for ever after.What could a creator god gain from punishing his creation? An omnipotent being wants for nothing, after all. Either he needs to make some people suffer to achieve some ends (and he considers billions of humans suffering through out history a fair price) or he does not need to do this and does it for, fun?Either way, we only suffer because of his actions. If he had forgiven Adam and not punished Adam and all his progeny for all time none of this torture would be necessary.Think about this for a moment: if your god had shown forgiveness he would have no need to torture people.What a concept; all human misery boiled down to one choice: made by you 'loving' god not to forgive Adam. If he had there would be no 'automatic' sin.People would have to choose to loose you god's love, rather than having to accept Jesus (as is the current paradigm to the best of my knowledge).So I would assert and answer to the question of 'why evil?' is because you god choose to have a world where people suffer. Why? Who can say. But it seems that it was a choice by the very god you claim loves you so much.

The answer to 'why evil exists' is because mankind chooses to practice it.When Adam chose to disobey God, he really chose not to live by Gods authority and laws. From that point onward, mankind was in charge of his own behavior and his behavior became very much like the animals around him. The reason for this is because God withdrew from him and he could no longer learn from God. Fortunately God made us with a conscience that had some built in laws that we universally accept but not everyone abides by them. ie murder, rape, stealing etc.God does not cause earthquakes and tsunamis and volcanic eruptions...these are just all part of natures cycles. If i choose to live in an earthquake prone area, and an earthquake occurs, how is that Gods fault? It isnt, its mine.
Likewise, if i choose to live at the base of a volcano and dont leave when it begins to show signs of activity, how is that Gods fault? Its not.Gods ultimate plan is to abolish mankinds independence and bring all of us back into harmony with his perfect laws. When he does this there will be no more disease, no more suffering, no more pain...but its up to us to accept to live under Gods direction and he makes this promise to all of us: "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ‘Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away." Rev. 21:2-4.This prophecy is being spoken in past tense because what God promises is as good as fulfilled.Besides this, all the suffering of all the millions of people who have lived before us will be undone by one act of rectification by God....The resurrection! Acts 24:15"and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous"So the truth of the matter is that God loves us so much that he is going to fix the world and all its problems...problems that we created. And when the world is being governed by him, the conditions on earth will be as he promises in the following scriptures: This new world that God is working towards doesnt sound too shabby at all. It certainly doesnt leave room for evil to exist in it for what does God say will happen to all those who practice evil acts? Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Think about what you have just written.If evil did not exist mankind would not be able to practice it.When Adam made the 'wrong' choice it was only 'wrong' because Yahweh decided to call it 'wrong'.So, I'll ask again: why did Yahweh not forgive Adam his trespass and not have to go to the bother of human misery for ever after?Why not show a little of this vaunted love when it could have really been useful? Rather than forgive him his sin. Rather than not introduce these activities into the human behavioural array. Yes he does. He created every thing. He created a situation where he knew people would live and die in such places. If he did not know he's not much a god, is he?Gods ultimate plan is to abolish mankinds independence and bring all of us back into harmony with his perfect laws.[/qs]And he is waiting for what, exactly?If he could get his biblical arse in gear we could cut down on the misery, couldn't we?But hang on. What happens to free will if mankind's independence is abolished? If this is the case that he is not bothered by mankind's independence why bother with it in the first place.For an omniscient god he's useless at forwards thinking.

well thats a good question. God could have just overlooked Adams rebellion and forgiven him. But would that really have prevented suffering or would it, instead, have made God responsible for it? Think about what happens when a father overlooks the deliberate wrongdoing on the part of his children. The children often get involved in first one form of wrongdoing and then another until they are the criminals we all fear. Who is responsible for the actions of these kids then? the father is. God cannot condone any form of unrighteous acts. This is why he did not overlook their rebellion. they are in our instincts as acts to shun...this is why those who practice such things do so secretly. Their conscience tells them its wrong, they know its wrong. They try to cover their tracts and will go to great lengths to cover their crimes. Its because we have been endowed with these laws of God. The problem is that our imperfect nature makes us ignore our conscience and do what we know is wong. And thats not Gods fault, its our own. independence was never a part of Gods purpose for us. We were and are completely dependent upon him for life. Adam and Eve only died because they became independent. They effectively cut themselves off from their life source.Independence means that we choose for ourselves what is right and wrong. That is exactly what happened in the Garden of Eden. Eve was told by the serpent (Satan) that: ‘You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.what he really meant was that if you eat from the tree you'll be like God and be able to make your own decisions as to what is good and what is bad. The result is as we see today...some people think its ok to kill, others to rape, others to cheat on their marriage mates, others to have sex with children, others to steal from the poor, others to fly planes into buildings and set off bombs and the list goes on and on.this is independence...we have it and it seems that its not something you like too much because you think the suffering we endure is not a good thing. We cannot live peacfully while everyone chooses to live the way they want and behave the way they want.Obeying Gods laws does not mean that we loose our free will. Adam and Eve still had free will before they had independence, thats why they could choose to do wrong. But Gods laws will bring relief from all the terrible things that happen in the world which is why i am more then happy to be dependent on God.