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Author Topic:   How did round planets form from the explosion of the Big Bang?
MatterWave
Member (Idle past 5056 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 01-15-2010


Message 68 of 156 (543531)
01-19-2010 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Sasuke
01-19-2010 1:23 AM


Re: E=MC(Einstein, 1879-1955).
It's not really clear what matter is. We don't know what energy is and what an elementary point-particle really is. There is no "picture" behind these concepts, nothing that a human being can imagine and definitely no agreement between physicists about what matter is. An exitation of a field is a way of saying - something that looks and behaves like a particle will appear at x,y,z and time T under certain circumstances(which are hotly disputed and debated all the time). This is not a picture of matter, it is a picture of us being restrained to speaking only of what we can say about nature, not of what or how nature really is. When discussing what energy and matter really are, we are talking more about philosophy than physics. Those who vehemently claim to know what matter and energy are, don't know what they are talking about. This is the cold truth of modern physics, summarized in a few sentences.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Sasuke, posted 01-19-2010 1:23 AM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Sasuke, posted 01-19-2010 2:15 AM MatterWave has replied
 Message 73 by cavediver, posted 01-19-2010 3:55 AM MatterWave has replied

  
MatterWave
Member (Idle past 5056 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 01-15-2010


Message 71 of 156 (543536)
01-19-2010 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Sasuke
01-19-2010 2:15 AM


Re: E=MC(Einstein, 1879-1955).
MatterWave,
Well I took a few chemistry classes and to sum up what I learned. Matter is made of chemicals. These chemicals can be found on the periodic table. Atoms bind to make different things. Molecules for one but then other things as well. Large amounts of these chemicals bind together to form matter. This matter can be broken down back into individual chemicals or whatever. The idea of energy comes into play when your looking for a capacity to do work. This energy or capacity to do work can be taken from a energy storage bank. This bank is essentially matter. Even though matter its self has no capacity to do work, the chemicals contained in matter can be stripped through stimulation such as catching gasoline on fire in order to do the work. There is more but that is to sum it up.... So that is why I say that matter is stored energy because the chemicals contained in matter is essentially dormant energy. If something is contained in something that makes it part of the whole and as such that means matter is essentially stoed energy. Maybe my jargon does not fit in with the modern day jargon of some of these high end departments in universities but the point still stands.. Sure matter is a field but its a field made of chemicals that if stimulated the correct way yields massive amounts of energy. This to me means matter is a storage bank of dormant energy.
Saying matter is energy isn't bringing new insights into the nature of matter, as one doesn't know what energy is, beyond - "energy is the capacity to do work"(there are some properties of matter that are hard to explain as arising from raw "energy"). Substituting one unknown with another is not a good definition of matter. The best way to treat multi-particle systems(matter) so far has been as fields in QFT, though it isn't saying much what matter really is.. And fields are most definitely not made of "chemicals".
Edited by MatterWave, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Sasuke, posted 01-19-2010 2:15 AM Sasuke has replied

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 Message 72 by Sasuke, posted 01-19-2010 3:15 AM MatterWave has not replied

  
MatterWave
Member (Idle past 5056 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 01-15-2010


Message 77 of 156 (543551)
01-19-2010 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by cavediver
01-19-2010 3:55 AM


Re: E=MC(Einstein, 1879-1955).
Incorrect. Our current understanding has a unified picture of matter, forces, gravity, space-time, and energy. So you may well be justified in claiming that "it's not really clear what reality is", but to single out matter is just ill-informed.
Then, it's not the "Picture" that most people here have in mind. Besides, you do not know the exact relationship between fields and "matter", as it's an interpretational issue, and there a more than 20 interpretations.
If you don't know what reality is, how can you know what matter is??
Knowing how "matter" behaves is not the same as saying "We know what matter is".
MatterWave writes:
We don't know what energy is and what an elementary point-particle really is.
Ditto. It sounds as if you think our current understanding is at the level of layman explanations...
Same as above - Knowing how elementary particle behaves is not the same as saying "We know what an elementary particle is".
No, we are talking about mathematical physics.
Mathematics says NOTHING about what an electron is. There is absolutely no agreement between physicists about the true nature of the electron. It's been proposed that there is an electron and an accompanying wave at the same time, that the particle electron does not exist and there is never any collapse, but just an apporximation(illusion) of it, that there is an electron only when you measure it, etc. ect.
Maths only lets you calculate probability, charge, charge density, spin... it says nothing about the nature of the "entity" being described.
At the level of this discussion, there is almost complete agreement - between physicists who actually understand this particularly narrow field. Who cares what physicists outside this field think?
Who are these physicists and can you reference a source where they claim to know the nature of matter?
No, this is layman bullshit once again trying to sound authoratative.
I think you aren't being sincere and consciously or not deceive the readers that there is agreement on topics for which there isn't any.
My question stays - If you don't know what reality is, how can ever claim to know what the nature of matter is? If there is no "matter" prior to measurement, or prior to decoherence, or prior to a pilot wave probes the "environment", etc., how can you claim to somehow possess such fundamental knowledge?
BTW, you must get used to the inevitable notion that in the abscence of fundamental knowledge of ANYTHING, you can't make such sweeping statements as "I(or some physicists - which?) know what "matter" really is".
Edited by MatterWave, : No reason given.
Edited by MatterWave, : No reason given.
Edited by MatterWave, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by cavediver, posted 01-19-2010 3:55 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by cavediver, posted 01-19-2010 6:52 AM MatterWave has not replied

  
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