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Author Topic:   Question on English Language to British Members
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1050 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 41 of 79 (542735)
01-12-2010 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Blue Jay
01-11-2010 4:03 PM


Re: While we're complaining about language conventions...
While we're complaining about language conventions...
English has too many rules that exist simply because they exist.
Thing is, these rules only exist in the minds of those who advocate them. There is no rulebook of English. There've been many different grammar and style handbooks, but they all mutually contradictory in at least some bits. Despite the pretensions of some of those who write them, the best a grammar guide can help to do, like a dictionary, is describe a step in an evolutionary process - not a hard and fast rule. Anyone who thinks that 'Me and Dave went shopping' or 'with who?' are grammatically incorrect is deeply confused.
When someone tries to criticise you for failing to obey a 'rule' like not using conjunctions at the start of the sentence, the correct approach is not to discuss whether the rule is necessary; but to inform them that they're talking out of their arse about the rule even existing, preferably with quotes from great literature if possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Blue Jay, posted 01-11-2010 4:03 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Blue Jay, posted 01-12-2010 10:12 AM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1050 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 43 of 79 (542743)
01-12-2010 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Blue Jay
01-12-2010 10:12 AM


Re: The Federal Bureau of Grammar
Still, as long as my science papers and grant proposals require me to use conventional grammar, I think the correct approach is still to demand an explanation for the rules I have to follow.
In this case I think the better approach is just to blindly obey the arbitrary desires of whoever decides whether you're getting accepted/published! Although, having said that, I do remember once going on a rant at lecturer who returned a paper with "American" repeatedly crossed out and replaced by "United States" and with "'80s" changed to "1980s". Yes, there's ambiguity in the abstract sense, but there really wasn't in context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Blue Jay, posted 01-12-2010 10:12 AM Blue Jay has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1050 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 52 of 79 (542965)
01-14-2010 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taq
01-12-2010 2:53 PM


Re: Brit Vs American - Written Vs Spoken
We don't want to sound british.
We americans do have poor grammar. I have often wondered if it has it's roots in our history as a people who were more rural and disconnected from "centers of higher learning".
Perhaps Aussies could serve as a test of my theory. Is Aussie grammar worse than British grammar?
I don't think it's even close to being true that Americans have worse grammar or English in general than the British. I can only assume the confusion comes from limited exposure to British people on a day to day basis, with people like David Attenborough or BBC news presenters standing in as the archetype. Trust me, that's not how the average person speaks.

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 Message 47 by Taq, posted 01-12-2010 2:53 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-14-2010 6:09 AM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1050 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 60 of 79 (543098)
01-15-2010 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
01-14-2010 6:09 AM


Re: Brit Vs American - Written Vs Spoken
Although certainly not perfect myself, I have many gripes with poor grammer, and the biggest one is probably the use of the word "them" instead of "those". There are huge swathes of the British population who say, "I like them ones" or "who are them people?" It annoys me because it sounds so babyish. I rarely if ever hear Americans making that error - do they?
I don't think it's right to call this an error, as many of the people who speak like this are perfectly aware of formal grammar. I say 'them ones'; I use 'us' as the first person singular pronoun in the accusative; and I say 'mesen' instead of 'myself', but none of these are mistakes. They're dialect.
My personal gripes are always more with spelling, anyway. It's grammar, not grammer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-14-2010 6:09 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by InGodITrust, posted 01-15-2010 2:19 PM caffeine has not replied
 Message 65 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-18-2010 4:36 AM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1050 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 68 of 79 (543673)
01-20-2010 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
01-18-2010 4:36 AM


Re: Brit Vs American - Written Vs Spoken
I was wondering about this point about dialect. At what point does something become dialect rather than a grammatical error?
If they're trying to use formal, textbook grammar, it's an error. Otherwise, it's dialect. Well, dialect or your own idiosyncratic form of speech, anyway.
You only need to see how many people write "they're" when they mean "there" or "their", or vice versa. What do they think the apostrophe in "they're" represents?
I've noticed I even do that myself sometimes, though. I don't think it's through any failure to understand the difference (well, it might be in some cases, but I'm pretty sure I know which spelling is which!}. It's just that your conscious brain isn't fully briefed in everything going on while you're typing - especially when half-asleep at work. I think you just subconsciously make a phonetic connection between the sound and one of the spellings without any real awareness of what your fingers are doing.
Lastly - to those complaining about 'at all' - what's the issue? We can't go getting rid of speech patterns simply because they add nothing to the meaning of a sentence. We keep them to give our speech rhythm and style.
"D'you want owt from the shop?' has a different feel to 'D'you want owt from the shop, at all?' It doesn't matter if the meanings are identical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-18-2010 4:36 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-20-2010 9:27 AM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1050 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 70 of 79 (543722)
01-20-2010 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
01-20-2010 9:27 AM


Re: Brit Vs American - Written Vs Spoken
However, shouldn't it be "D'you want owt from shop?"?
Depends where you're from. I think I tend to say the 'the' nowadays, as my way of speaking's been all softened by the necessity of making myself comprehensible to foreigners. The way I grew up saying it there was still a residual trace of the word though. Not quite a 't' sound, more like just a sharp stop in the flow of air where 'the' should be. I've always thought of it as a kind of verbal punctuation mark, indicating the abbreviation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-20-2010 9:27 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Modulous, posted 01-20-2010 5:06 PM caffeine has not replied

  
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