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Author Topic:   Question on English Language to British Members
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4969 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 31 of 79 (542599)
01-11-2010 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by InGodITrust
01-08-2010 3:00 PM


So I'm curious if you are wrestling, in England, with a problem we wrestle with in America: the "he/she" problem. An example is in the sentence "When a fire fighter enters a smokey building, he/she must follow strict safety proceedures." We don't know if the fire fighter is male or female, and we don't want to offend anyone by using either "he" or "she" alone.
I agree that they is not an elegant option, especially as it requires plural endings on verbs, which makes no sense when you are referring to an individual.
Another option is to use it, but it’s too cold and harsh a word, and too commonly associated with inanimate or non-human objects.
What we need is a new pronoun to describe the third person singular, but which is non-gender specific.
It also needs to be short and simple — one syllable should suffice.
It needs to be a word which has absolutely no other meaning or relevance.
I think I've got it. How does this sound? -
"When a fire fighter enters a smokey building, god must follow strict safety proceedures."
I really like the sound of that!
P.S.
Talking of male and female fire fighters, does anyone know if it’s possible to obtain a calendar of topless female fire fighters? If not, I think there ought to be one, just to balance things out and ensure nobody's offended.

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 Message 1 by InGodITrust, posted 01-08-2010 3:00 PM InGodITrust has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4969 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 53 of 79 (542969)
01-14-2010 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by caffeine
01-14-2010 5:21 AM


Re: Brit Vs American - Written Vs Spoken
I don't think it's even close to being true that Americans have worse grammar or English in general than the British. I can only assume the confusion comes from limited exposure to British people on a day to day basis, with people like David Attenborough or BBC news presenters standing in as the archetype. Trust me, that's not how the average person speaks.
I agree. And I wonder if the reverse is true, as well. I find that most Americans I communicate with or hear on TV sound better educated and use better grammer than the average British person I encounter, though they may not be representative of the average American.
Although certainly not perfect myself, I have many gripes with poor grammer, and the biggest one is probably the use of the word "them" instead of "those". There are huge swathes of the British population who say, "I like them ones" or "who are them people?" It annoys me because it sounds so babyish. I rarely if ever hear Americans making that error - do they?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by hooah212002, posted 01-14-2010 7:29 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied
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 Message 60 by caffeine, posted 01-15-2010 11:05 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4969 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 55 of 79 (542983)
01-14-2010 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by hooah212002
01-14-2010 7:29 AM


Re: Brit Vs American - Written Vs Spoken
Good. That means you don't watch Fox news. Most of the other mainline media sources DO appear to be educated, just not Fox.
Sometimes I do briefly tune in to Fox News, just because I need to convince myself that my previous memories of doing so were real.

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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4969 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 57 of 79 (542998)
01-14-2010 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Blue Jay
01-14-2010 10:48 AM


Re: Brit Vs American - Written Vs Spoken
Go spend a day in southern Missouri sometime. I was born in them hills.
Ah, yes. Now you put it in context, I have heard you guys talking like that.
Isn't the full expression "them there hills"? Or "them their hills"? Or "them they're hills"?

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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4969 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 65 of 79 (543437)
01-18-2010 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by caffeine
01-15-2010 11:05 AM


Re: Brit Vs American - Written Vs Spoken
My personal gripes are always more with spelling, anyway. It's grammar, not grammer.
Egg splatted all over face!
It's particularly embarrassing as I've just pointed out someone else's spelling mistake on another thread!
I don't think it's right to call this an error, as many of the people who speak like this are perfectly aware of formal grammar. I say 'them ones'; I use 'us' as the first person singular pronoun in the accusative; and I say 'mesen' instead of 'myself', but none of these are mistakes. They're dialect.
I was wondering about this point about dialect. At what point does something become dialect rather than a grammatical error? I suppose as long as people are consistent and unambiguous in their use of a word, the meaning is clear and it can be called dialect. I'm not sure that that many people are aware of the formal grammar though. You only need to see how many people write "they're" when they mean "there" or "their", or vice versa. What do they think the apostrophe in "they're" represents?
Living in Norfolk is a particular treat for hearing dialect. My favourite is the word "shew" meaning "showed". "I shew him how to do it." It's quite funny because I have a friend who uses it all the time and I think he's slightly aware it's not right, as he sometimes does a sort of stutter before saying it, but he's not quite sure of the correct word so he says it anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by caffeine, posted 01-15-2010 11:05 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by caffeine, posted 01-20-2010 7:51 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4969 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 66 of 79 (543438)
01-18-2010 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Son Goku
01-15-2010 9:50 PM


"at all"
Hi Son Goku
If anybody is wondering, since you see it in films all the time, the reason "at all" or "at all, at all" is said by the Irish, is that the Gaeilge expression for "none" literally means "at all"
The phrase "at all" is getting completely out of hand in the UK. I'm not sure what people mean by it. Every time I go to the supermarket, the cashier says, "Do you have a clubcard - at all?"
I've got no idea, at all, what they mean by that. Are they asking if I've got at least a part of a clubcard? Why would they suppose that? What would be their reaction if I said, "I have got a clubcard, but I haven't got one at all."?

"Bring on the wall!" - Dale Winton

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 Message 64 by Son Goku, posted 01-15-2010 9:50 PM Son Goku has not replied

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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4969 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 69 of 79 (543695)
01-20-2010 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by caffeine
01-20-2010 7:51 AM


Re: Brit Vs American - Written Vs Spoken
Lastly - to those complaining about 'at all' - what's the issue? We can't go getting rid of speech patterns simply because they add nothing to the meaning of a sentence. We keep them to give our speech rhythm and style.
"D'you want owt from the shop?' has a different feel to 'D'you want owt from the shop, at all?' It doesn't matter if the meanings are identical.
I agree with you generally about rhythm and style in speach. I suppose in the example you give above, as well as in my example where the cashiers all say "do you have a clubcard at all" the "at all" softens the question. It's a kind of politeness. Fair point.
However, shouldn't it be "D'you want owt from shop?"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by caffeine, posted 01-20-2010 7:51 AM caffeine has replied

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