Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8925 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-20-2019 8:19 PM
28 online now:
14174dm, AZPaul3, dwise1, Faith, jar (5 members, 23 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Jedothek
Post Volume:
Total: 860,137 Year: 15,173/19,786 Month: 1,896/3,058 Week: 270/404 Day: 84/73 Hour: 3/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
2Next
Author Topic:   Landmark gay marriage trial starts today in California
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 405 of 759 (702267)
07-03-2013 11:58 AM


How does the striking down of DOMA affect cities?
So, I have an interesting question about the results of the SCOTUS decision about DOMA.

First some background on what my question is exactly. I am in Arizona, a strong Red State, with no gay marriage allowed in our laws. However, recently we had a small older, hippie-esque, art community city called Bisbee pass an ordinance that same sex civil unions would be allowed in the city of Bisbee.

Source

Now, the Attorney General originally threatened to take legal action but has declined to do so instead. This means that the state Attorney General is going to allow same sex civil unions to occur in this city. Will the changes to DOMA take effect toward the individuals who receive a same sex civil union in the city of Bisbee or will the Federal Government rely upon the laws of the State of Arizona to determine whether or not to pay federal benefits to those with same sex civil unions? It seems like in this scenario the Federal Government can play the "Well, the State law says it is not okay, therefore no Federal benefits are required to be given to those with same-sex civil unions in the town of Bisbee."


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by NoNukes, posted 07-03-2013 1:10 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded
 Message 626 by NoNukes, posted 08-14-2013 5:16 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 407 of 759 (702279)
07-03-2013 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by NoNukes
07-03-2013 1:10 PM


Re: How does the striking down of DOMA affect cities?
NoNukes writes:

Marital status affects an enormous number of things (e.g. immigration law, tax law, social security benefits, federal health and survivor benefits, tons of military benefits) I expect that Congress won't be happy with the executive branch having that kind of power and will legislate in this area pretty quickly.

Yeah, I especially cannot see the House allowing the Obama administration to have that much authority for a long time. I was thinking we may start seeing legislation come out (pun intended) sometime near the end of the month defining these rights.

NoNukes writes:

Meanwhile, I can imagine that in some cases, but not all cases, showing a valid marriage license will be enough to access federal benefits. The answer might well depend on what the president and his cabinet folk want the answer to be.

So, if this turns out to be the case then individuals in same sex marriages in cities that are in states that do not recognize these marriages should still be able to have their Federal rights, if not State rights? I mean, at least that is a step forward in the right direction, I would say. Although, I think we may see many more laws going to the Federal level after these results.

NoNukes writes:

Civil unions are most likely not quite marriages under federal law. My answer does not take that into account. And my state is redder than yours on this issue. NC's constitution prevents recognition of gay marriage or civil unions.

I think I would have to look into how the Federal Government sees Civil Unions. Well, from what I could find quickly DOMA did specify against civil unions so, I would think that these cases would also apply to the newly available Federal benefits. From Wikipedia:

Wiki writes:

Same-sex couples who enter into a civil union are provided almost all of the rights granted to married couples under New Jersey state law. However, under the provisions of the federal Defense of Marriage Act or DOMA, same-sex couples in marriages, civil unions, or domestic partnerships do not have any right or entitlement to the 1,138 rights that a married couple has under federal law.

This was a Wikipedia page specifically about acceptance in New Jersey, so it may not apply but this line seems to say that DOMA applied equally to remove rights from same sex marriages, civil unions, and domestic partnerships (three different ways of naming the same thing in my eyes). So, I would think that because the laws were found unconstitutional in marriages, a legally binding contract, then the same should be said for civil unions, also a legally binding contract.

Although, as I read through the Opinion of the Court I see this line:

Opinion of the Supreme Court writes:

The class to which DOMA directs its restrictions and restraints are those persons who are joined in same-sex marriages made lawful by the State.

That lawful by the state line makes me think that it will not extend to those who only live in a city that accepts it, but not a state. They did not really include a lot about Civil Unions. It was mentioned a couple times throughout the Opinion of the Court, so I think it may apply to those, but only if that is what the state has decided to call same-sex marriages.

Source

NoNukes writes:

Note here that the state prohibition on gays to marry created a situation where denying state benefits to unmarried gay couples was found to be discriminatory. How blue is that??

That is a pretty funny conundrum that Arizona placed itself in. I would think at that point you may as well approve the same-sex marriages and create an equal society because you are going to pay the state benefits anyway. Plus, you know creating equality is actually a good thing.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by NoNukes, posted 07-03-2013 1:10 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by AZPaul3, posted 07-03-2013 3:41 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded
 Message 413 by NoNukes, posted 07-04-2013 12:30 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 409 of 759 (702281)
07-03-2013 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by AZPaul3
07-03-2013 3:41 PM


Re: How does the striking down of DOMA affect cities?
AZPaul3 writes:

Regardless of what happens in Bisbee the state of Arizona does not recognize same-sex marriage. Therefore gay couples in Arizona cannot apply for Federal benefits as married couples would. Federal benefits, as far as I know, do not extend to civil unions in the same way as they do to marriage thus the equal protection argument for "marriage" in Windsor against DOMA.

Okay, so the Federal Gov't will base it solely upon the designation of the state and will not carry it to the city level. Makes me wonder if we will see future cases coming direct from cities to argue this point later on...

Now, see I keep reading things the Gov't has released and they always seem to classify Civil Unions, Same-Sex Marriage, and Domestic Partnerships as a single entity. Even in the recent Supreme Court decision, they mentioned all of them together when discussing laws that have been enacted in different states, but then continued on only mentioning marriage. Confused me if it was one of those situations where it was like, "Same-Sex Marriage, Civil Unions, Domestic Partnerships, hereafter referred to as Marriage".

So, the Feds will take Civil Unions out of this equation, so states with those laws might get sued on the fact that they do not offer an equal opportunity to individuals at the state level anymore. Wasn't that the whole reason the term Civil Union was coined, so the states could call it something other than marriage, but give same-sex partners the same state rights? Won't that run into a legal issue now that they can get state, but not Federal? Especially because the entire talking point of "You get everything they get from us" is no longer true?


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by AZPaul3, posted 07-03-2013 3:41 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by AZPaul3, posted 07-03-2013 5:03 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 411 of 759 (702301)
07-03-2013 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by AZPaul3
07-03-2013 5:03 PM


Re: How does the striking down of DOMA affect cities?
AZPaul3 writes:

Somewhat, yes, since at the time, early 2000, no one wanted to allow gay marriage. Depending on the state different property rights attach to civil unions than to marriage. I'm no sure about other rights, priviledges, obligations vis-a-vis marriage which will very state by state. Today, in states that allow same-sex marriage, civil unions are no longer needed.

Sweet, well that definitely finds an answer to my question about what the situation would be for the Bisbee residents. Although, as they are allowed to at least legally in their city be civilly unionized (I am so coining that phrase), they are better off than other same-sex couples in Arizona.

AZPaul3 writes:

Arizona's Constitution contains a similar amendment. Keep in mind that we, as well, are in the 9th Circuit and, even though their judgement was vacated, we have a real good idea what will happen if when suit comes to the Arizona District court.

So, with the prior case decisions, it is only a matter of time before marriage equality becomes the normal in America, which is definitely a good thing because it removes one more layer of the bigotry many nations still hold on to. Do you see the change in culture occurring extremely rapidly now or will it still take a good amount of time for the full change to occur?

It seems to me that once the decisions reach the level they have, lawsuits begin to pour in based upon the decision. Which, I find a good thing because it leads to rapid change. It makes the busienss world comply because of the threat to profits, legislation has to follow to ensure protection of the group that was being mistreated. As this is how I see it, and I definitely could be wrong, I see this change occuring nationwide in less than ten years but more than five years, would you assume the change would be quicker or slower than that?


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by AZPaul3, posted 07-03-2013 5:03 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by NoNukes, posted 07-04-2013 12:17 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 417 of 759 (702570)
07-09-2013 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 416 by AZPaul3
07-04-2013 6:09 AM


Re: It's A Long Road.
Well, the next step of the long journey has been begun by a couple from Pennsylvania and the ACLU. They are bringing a lawsuit against the State of Pennsylvania for their ban on gay marriage. The plaintiffs in the case now include 1 widow, ten couples and a child of one of the couples.

It appears they will be taking the same route as the plaintiffs in the California case, by claiming that the ban on same sex marriage is unconstitutional because it breaches the Fourteenth Amendment and it's equal protection.

Looks like we shall get to see what goes on in the next step along the way.

By the way, how many of these lawsuits do you think will be backed by the ACLU? I know they are the fighters for equality in many instances, but will they take up all of the cases?

Pennsylvania's Gay Marriage Ban Challenged

Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : To add link

Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by AZPaul3, posted 07-04-2013 6:09 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by AZPaul3, posted 07-09-2013 11:05 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 507 of 759 (702764)
07-11-2013 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 496 by Faith
07-11-2013 10:47 AM


Re: Pointy Sticks
Faith writes:

The supposedly neutral term "SEXUAL ORIENTATION" implies pedophilia. You like neutral terms like "sexual orientation" because they take the onus off homosexuality as a socially undesirable condition, allowing you to call it normal, so I pointed out that there are other "sexual orientations" you might not feel the same way about.

Fine, I will give you that as a "Sexual Orientation". However, giving you that as the definition does mean that there are some "Sexual Orientations" I would not agree with. Specifically, the ones that involve terrible treatment of those who cannot or did not give informed consent...i.e. pedophilia, rape...but to take the desire to deny these forms of "Sexual Orientation" and extend it to the form of love shared by two fully consenting adults is ludicrous and hateful. You equate Homosexuality with pedophilia like one partner forces him or herself on the other, without consent. This is not the case and merely shows your bigotry.

There is a great meme that has been going around with a Biblical picture on it. It has Jesus saying, "Ok, here's an idea. You love them, like I loved you. Make sure you take care of them and don't judge them." Then, someone in the crowd says, "What if they're gay or worship other Gods?" Followed by Jesus', "Did I F***ing stutter?"

Faith writes:

I've done no hate talk though you love to say so.

Everything you have done in this thread has been spewing forth hate. Trying to take the behavior of two consenting adults who love one another and comparing it to a man or woman taking advantage of a child's less formed brain and forcing or manipulating them into sexual behavior is hateful and shows your ignorance of society.

You people, the hateful among America, are a disease and your rights should be removed so that you can understand how it can feel to be a pariah. You don't want gay families adopting children, tell your heterosexual friends to stop having children out of wedlock. However, I don't hear you spouting off against the heterosexual sex sins...why, because at least they are "Normal" in your eyes.

Oh, and by the way...Normal is quite possibly the most overused and pointless word in the English language. There is no such thing as normal, this word only serves to try and segment and separate society into divisions. We would be better served if we let this idea and word simply die.

Now, Faith, stop spreading your hate and allow those who are consenting adults and love one another to live a long and happy life together in marriage. My grandmother was on the wrong side of the Civil Rights movement and my family has talked about her views during that time and how wrong they were. Well, you have a choice now Faith...here is a new civil rights item. You can choose to be on the side of love and allow people to find happiness in this world or you can continue to spit vitriol and hatred and deny consenting adults rights you would gladly give to your "Normals". Where do you think Christianity wants you to side, with love or hate? So far, I think you have chosen wrong.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by Faith, posted 07-11-2013 10:47 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 509 by Faith, posted 07-11-2013 11:20 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 515 of 759 (702775)
07-11-2013 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 509 by Faith
07-11-2013 11:20 AM


Re: Pointy Sticks
Oooooh....standard fall back plan of playing the martyr. Well, then let's have the evidence...

How have I been hateful toward you? Oh, I know I condemned you for evil ideas that treat certain people in society as less than human, but I do not hate you for it. Personally, I think that you are afraid of what happens after death and so you desperately cling to something that gives you hope of something later. In other words, I do not hate you, I feel sorry for you and these terrible ideas you have to somehow justify. I would not waste my time hating you, because I believe that you are simply terribly misinformed. Sadly, you accepted the indoctrination.

Now, about how you have spread hate:

1. You specifically deny the rights of certain individuals in the United States based solely upon Biblical reasoning. You feel that making this segment of society less, because you are literally barring them from the same freedoms, is okay. That is hateful.

2. You compare the activities of consenting adults to the activities of a predator that manipulates, coerces, forces, and pressures a child, incapable of giving informed consent, into sexual behavior. You do this to create an imaginary connection that will help you remove rights from people...This is hateful

3. You place blame for the spread of AIDs on the homosexual community. While it is a very large problem in this community, there is one thing you are forgetting...Where is your blame for the roles the churches, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, et al., have played in the spread of HIV and AIDS by refusing to allow their practitioners to choose the route of safe sex in an era when we know how the disease spreads...Denying your groups own blame and forcing the blame on another group is hateful

4. You speak of the idea of "Normal". As I stated, normal is simply a word that is used so that people can exclude others from their activities. I have never in my life met a "Normal" person, we all have our own idiosyncracies which is what makes life on this Earth so damn interesting. Judging people by a standard you created yourself is hateful.

Would you like me to keep pointing out the ways you have been hateful in this thread? Making a group of people second class citizens based on the writings of Iron Age people is evil, bigoted, hateful and wrong. And if you cannot see that, then I simply feel sorry for you and the blind hatred your God has forced you to live with.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by Faith, posted 07-11-2013 11:20 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 517 by Faith, posted 07-11-2013 12:03 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 518 of 759 (702787)
07-11-2013 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by Faith
07-11-2013 12:03 PM


Re: Pointy Sticks
Faith writes:

Oddly enough, I don't recall using Biblical reasoning at all in this discussion.

From Message 498

Faith writes:

In case you haven't noticed, 1) the polygamous practices of the Old Testament were NOT approved by God, and 2) the coming of Christ changed all that, clearly identifying marriage as one husband, one wife. I know you all love to pretend otherwise but it IS a pretense and you are wrong.

Just thought I'd point this out quick...but continue trying to say you have not said something...and historically I get way more than one wife, right?

Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by Faith, posted 07-11-2013 12:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by Faith, posted 07-11-2013 12:10 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 520 of 759 (702790)
07-11-2013 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by Faith
07-11-2013 12:03 PM


Re: Pointy Sticks
You are too blinded by your hatred to see any thing of reason, so I will leave you to it. Enjoy treating others as second class citizens and know that, while I am heterosexual, I will do anything in my power to ensure that my fellow homosexual Americans have every right the same as I do. If you are for America, you should be for Equality. However, your hatred blinds you and that is your own, to borrow a Christian phrase, your own bigoted cross to bear. Enjoy it...and know that you chose to remain on the wrong side. History will remember you the same way it remembers the bigots from the Civil Rights movement, as extremely misguided people..

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by Faith, posted 07-11-2013 12:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 522 by Faith, posted 07-11-2013 12:16 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 521 of 759 (702791)
07-11-2013 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 519 by Faith
07-11-2013 12:10 PM


Re: Pointy Sticks
Faith writes:

Good grief, the reference to Old Testament polygamy was a specific answer to a specific post on that subject, it was not part of my argument against gay marriage. Not that you care to represent anything I say correctly of course.

But, historically, it was perfectly okay right? So, then according to your own argument, based solely on history, I get more than one wife, right? You cannot have it both ways...either it is historical, which means polygamy is golden...or its biblical, which means it has no place in the laws of a secular nation. I get that you say its a historic argument because you know you will lose on the separation of church and state argument if you argue biblically.

So, which marriage do we allow Faith? The historical, polygamy? Or the biblical, homosexual?


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Faith, posted 07-11-2013 12:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 523 by Faith, posted 07-11-2013 12:19 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 528 of 759 (702800)
07-11-2013 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 523 by Faith
07-11-2013 12:19 PM


Re: Pointy Sticks
Faith writes:

How could it have been HISTORICALLY OK for the Israelites to have many wives if it was not OK with God? What kind of nonsense is that?

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot that only Israelites existed in the world ever...they were never you know fighting any other cultures or anything like that.....Wait,.....WHAT?!?!?!?!

I said historically...To understand that argument, you have to look at all of history, not just the Israelites.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by Faith, posted 07-11-2013 12:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 534 of 759 (702825)
07-11-2013 2:31 PM


No Fight from Attorney General
Well, I think that this is a big sign of the changing times in this country...shows something that Faith will just have to get used to, Equal treatment for everyone.

Pennsylvania's Attorney General Won't Fight Gay Marriage Lawsuit

She quotes the Pennsylvania Constitution as banning discrimination against any individual because of race, religion, and ethnic origin and that it is time for the state of Pennsylvania to end another form of discrimination. I think her closing quote was a really good sentiment, as well.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(2)
Message 553 of 759 (702868)
07-11-2013 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by Faith
07-11-2013 12:03 PM


Re: Pointy Sticks
Okay, Faith, there are two things that you have stated in this thread that I cannot let go...and for the sake of argument, I will agree with your idea of a 6,000 year old Earth for this discussion. Mainly for the history point.

1. Now the first point is when you stated this:

Faith writes:

Oddly enough, I don't recall using Biblical reasoning at all in this discussion. If I have perhaps you can point it out?

I then pointed out where you had stated that the Old Testament may have condoned polygamy, even endorsed, but the New Testament rescinded this approval, thus marriage is defined as one man and one woman. You said that was not to prove your point, but because it shows how the views changed, or something along those lines, please let me know if I am wrong.

So, I thought I would bring to attention a second use of the Bible to defend your views used in this very thread as well. In fact, on the very same page in my setup of twenty messages a page where you said you never used the Bible in this thread.

Faith writes:

First of all I don't hate gay people, and second the New Testament also identifies homosexuality as sin, in more than one place. Along with heterosexual sin and many others.

Whether or not something is a sin should not define the legal status that the individuals who practice it are afforded. The damage done to other indivduals or other's property is what should be considered when legal consideration is given. Same Sex Marriage cannot be denied based upon the fact that homosexuality is a sin to the Christian Church.

So, two places where your arguments against same sex marriage required your use of the Bible. It may not have been your main argument, but your secondary arguments used to prop up the original argument are certainly a factor on whether or not your opinion stems from religion.

However, you want to claim you have History on your side! Well, shoot....maybe you do, I mean I can think of a lot of cultures where only one man and one woman were married...I mean, especially after Jesus talked about it. Wait, using a 6,000 year old Earth, Jesus only talked about it 2,000 years ago. Plus worldwide, I keep reading that while still legal in many regions of the World, polygamy was only banned in some countries as recent as the 1900's. So we have the Old Testament giving polygamy the go ahead for most of the first 4,000 years...Gotta build that tribe size.

Then, we have other cultures around the world who currently still practice polygamy and have for a long time, so we can say basically 6,000 years of history for them.

Now some banned it very recently, I'll give you benefit of the doubt and place the average at 1100 CE. How does that sounds...it even accounts for Judaisms ban on polygamy in 1000 CE.

So, we have 4,000 years from Christianity, 6,000 years from a far larger number of countries, including most Islamic countries, and we have 4,900 years from other countries that banned it throughout History. Last I heard, the more amount of time spent in one system would mean it is the most common form of marriage in History, so your argument fails to meet the demand for evidence. Marriage should include Polygamy if you are only making a Historical argument.

Plus, your beloved Martin Luther said that according to the Sola Scriptura there is no reason he cannot join a man and more than one wife in marriage.

Source: putting this here, even though Faith will just claim Wikipedia is biased

So, could you again tell me how your ideas are based on the commonly held traditional view of marriage throughout History and not based upon the Christian defined definition that at most has a history of around 2,500 years as being the only way to define marriage (and that is generous of me). Last I learned 3,500 is bigger than 2,500.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by Faith, posted 07-11-2013 12:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by Faith, posted 07-12-2013 12:34 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 561 of 759 (702883)
07-12-2013 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 554 by Faith
07-12-2013 12:34 AM


Re: Pointy Sticks
Faith writes:

I did NOT say that, Tempe, please go back and reread. I said that God did not approve of the polygamy that was practiced in the Old Testament, in other words it was sin, it was NOT condoned, it was NOT endorsed, so there was nothing to be rescinded in the New Testament, God's Creation Ordinance of one man and one woman becoming one flesh was simply emphasized.

No need to get uppity, I asked to be corrected if wrong. I get you so God's law said it was wrong...mankind went a different way. Jesus corrected the misinterpretation that was received from reading the very same scripture. Got it.

Faith writes:

OK, perhaps there you have found my using it as I had forgotten, but again I don't think so: again this was said in answer to something someone else raised about the Bible, confining the laws against homosexuality to the Old Testament, while my usual argument was not based on the Bible but on history. I don't care if I did use the Bible in my argument, it's just that I believed I didn't, and left it to you to show me if I did, but what you have shown me doesn't seem to be about my argument, merely an attempt to answer others' arguments.

And Again, if you cannot defend your original argument against others arguments without relying on this, you are relying on the Bible for your back up arguments, which makes your main argument also rest on the Bible.

Faith writes:

I didn't claim it should be. Again, I was answering a specific question. But to answer your claim here, there is such a thing as general damage to the body politic or society as a whole by redefining something as basic and ancient as marriage to accommodate something that has been regarded in all times and places as a sexual aberration.

Please show your work...show me the general damage to society CAUSED by same sex marriage. I expect you to trot out Nero, but remember there were a lot more issues with his rule than simply that. So, explain to me what occurred, how what occurred created a negative response throughout society and how this then had an adverse affect on the whole of society.

Faith writes:

Sigh. But I did not use them as props in any sense whatever, I was merely answering specific arguments of others. THEY brought up the religious factor, I didn't.

No, they brought up objections which you required the Bible to answer. Such as Jazzns same attempt as mine to get you to realize that you do not even argue for a HISTORICAL version of marriage because you would be advocating polygamy. There is the problem, you choose to argue a BIBLICAL reason, not a HISTORICAL one. We are trying to point out to you that if we go with the historical definition, there is far more history in this world of polygamy, then not polygamy. So, stop saying you are against gay marriage for historical reasons because if you were, then you would be for polygamy. Do you get it now?

Faith writes:

In the Bible it was clearly sin and NOT condoned by the Bible for that reason. And as far as history goes just how common has polygamy been anyway?

Read the link I posted...or do some research on your own. It was allowed as marriage for most of history (especially your 6,000 year old Earth), although wealth was an important part. Mainly because you have more mouths to feed.

Faith writes:

Honestly I have no idea what you are trying to prove. What is your point? Concerning history ALL I believe I have claimed is that homosexuality has in all times and places been regarded as an aberration, far from giving it the legitimacy of marriage. I don't recall saying anything about polygamy in history and what would be your point about that? Polygamy is heterosexual, no?

No, you claimed to be against Same Sex Marriage because of the HISTORY of marriage and its TRADITION of being just one man and one woman. I am showing you that you are not arguing for the HISTORICAL definition of marriage, but rather the one that the Christian Church has defined for everyone else. It is not your choice to define words, and definitions change along with society. Soon, marriage will mean two consenting adults joining their lives through the legal channels and love.

If you want to claim your argument is from the historical perspective, you should be clambering for polygamous rights...instead, you only rage against the homosexual community wanting to be treated equal. In other words, HISTORY does not defend your viewpoint, which shows that all you have to stand on is a religious argument, which should have no place in our legislation.

...And....Boom, goes the dynamite.

Faith writes:

Again, first, homosexuality is the topic, not polygamy, and my claim still holds that across all cultures through all time homosexuality has been treated as an aberration; and second, it is not at all clear just how common polygamy has been anyway, but why should it matter if it's common since I'd expect God's laws to be violated by fallen humanity. And there I AM arguing from the Bible.

Be very careful, this last statement comes super close to revealing your true argument that tries to use your own religion to turn the homosexual community into second class citizens...although, I suspect you honestly know that it is religious reasoning that forms your opinions on this issue....after all you have thrown the term God out a lot in this thread.

Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.

Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by Faith, posted 07-12-2013 12:34 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 583 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-12-2013 8:35 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 619 of 759 (703063)
07-14-2013 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 616 by hooah212002
07-13-2013 11:58 AM


Attempt went far afield...
Yeah, at this point it is obvious that the attempt I was making to show Faith that her argument against gay marriage is not based on history but rather on Biblical reasons, therefore it should have no place in the laws of the United States, has failed.

That was the entire purpose of bringing up the history of polygamy, because it has a more widespread history than one man/one woman. I figure if a law can only be defended with biblical reasoning, it should be removed from society. This would mean that same sex marriage should be accepted everywere, because in the end, the only argument against it is religious.

This is why I attempted this method. However, my apologies that it has gone far afield of that goal.

At this point anyone reading this thread understands that Faith is basing her argument and condemnation of an entire class of people on her religious views and that history does not support the idea of one man/one woman as the preeminent form of marriage that has been practiced. Hopefully, those who understand this can see that it is merely religiously motivated bigotry and an unwillingness to not force religious ideals into politics that treats individuals as pariahs. If we want to have freedom of religion, than the shoe must go on the other foot. Religious bias is not a reason to demote other human beings and marriage equality simply is reasonable, logical, and right. I know Faith says she does not hate homosexuals, and I believe she means that. The church has confused its patrons with the use of "Love the sinner, hate the sin.", but the thing is sins to one, may not be sins to another. Laws should not be based on sins, although they may conincide at times.

Otherwise, I submit to the law, I picked up a stick yesterday...


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by hooah212002, posted 07-13-2013 11:58 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 620 by Faith, posted 07-14-2013 6:30 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

  
1
2Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019