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Author Topic:   Landmark gay marriage trial starts today in California
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 1 of 759 (542643)
01-11-2010 2:32 PM


The case, Perry v. Schwartzenegger, is groundbreaking in a number of different ways. It's the first case, to my knowledge, that will involve a trial. In addition, to get beyond the political rhetoric, the judge has ordered the parties to present evidence on the following questions:

Can sexual orientation be changed?

How would legalizing gay marriage affect traditional marriages?

What is the the effect on children of being raised by two mothers or two fathers?

Curiously, the state has apparently refused to defend Proposition 8, so the judge has allowed the proponents of the legislation to mount a defense.

Most fascinating is the team of attorneys representing the plaintiffs. One, Theodore Olson, a former U.S. Solicitor General under Bush II, is known for his staunchly conservative views. Regarding gay marriage, he has this to say:

The Loving case was forty-two years ago. It’s inconceivable to us these days to say that a couple of a different racial background can’t get married. Separate is not equal. Civil unions and domestic partnerships are not the same as marriage. We’re not inventing any new right, or creating a new right, or asking the courts to recognize a new right. The Supreme Court has said over and over and over again that marriage is a fundamental right, and although our opponents say, ‘Well, that’s always been involving a man and a woman,’ when the Supreme Court has talked about it they’ve said it’s an associational right, it’s a liberty right, it’s a privacy right, and it’s an expression of your identity, which is all wrapped up in the Constitution.”

This according to The New Yorker.

His co-counsel, David Boies, is a Democratic trial lawyer who opposed Olson in Bush v. Gore. Strange bedfellows to say the least.

Reading between the lines, I think this judge is looking to try to provide definitive answers based on evidence to the myriad claims made by those opposing gay marriage. He has also ordered that the trial may be taped and distributed on You Tube. The U.S. Supreme Court has temporarily stayed that order and is expected to issue a final ruling by Wednesday.

I'm anticipating a very interesting trial.

Edited by subbie, : Tyop


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Stile, posted 01-12-2010 8:41 AM subbie has responded
 Message 9 by Nuggin, posted 01-13-2010 12:49 AM subbie has responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 4 of 759 (542733)
01-12-2010 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Stile
01-12-2010 8:41 AM


Re: You Tube
quote:
The trial is public, yes? That is, if I lived in the area and had the free time, I could walk into the court room and listen in on the proceedings, right?

Well, yes and no. As you might imagine, demand to watch this trial is very high, higher than the capacity of the courtroom where it's being held. It's my understanding that the judge has allowed a closed circuit feed of the proceedings into an overflow room in the courthouse. I have no idea if that room has filled as well, but it wouldn't surprise me.

quote:
"Important" cases have been televised before, right? I think the OJ trial was televised? Have others been televised as well?

My understanding is that many cases are televised in California. I'm not sure what the criteria are, but it makes sense that cases with a higher public interest would be more likely to be televised. But I'd guess that each individual judge has the discretion to allow or bar cameras on a case by case basis.

quote:
That is, the Supreme Court is basically just deciding how important this case is when determining if it is allowed on You Tube (or TV) or not? Or are there other considerations?

My understanding is that those arguing in support of Prop 8 are opposed to televising the trial and, apparently, their reason for their opposition is witnesses testifying in support of the Prop are afraid of retaliation because of their support. In general, I would think that fear of witness intimidation, or witnesses being influenced by the presence of cameras, would be a legitimate reason to bar cameras from a given trial. However, I will leave it to the readers to make their own conclusion about the reasonableness of that argument in this particular case.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Stile, posted 01-12-2010 8:41 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 5 of 759 (542780)
01-12-2010 2:44 PM


Trial blogger, multiple posts per day.
This site has someone live blogging from the trial, posting multiple times during the day. He's obviously biased in terms of the outcome he'd like to see, but I get the feeling that he's doing his best to provide an accurate description of the proceedings.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Taz, posted 01-12-2010 5:16 PM subbie has responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 7 of 759 (542816)
01-12-2010 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taz
01-12-2010 5:16 PM


Re: Trial blogger, multiple posts per day.
This page has links to all the various blog entries as well as other pieces that the site has done on the trial.

It's clear to me that the blogger is pro gay marriage. Among other things, on day one, during the Plaintiffs' opening, he wrote this:

Opening statement: Ted Olson

This case is about marriage and equality. Plaintiffs are being denied the right to marry, described by SCOTUS as one of the most vital personal rights pursuant to the right to the pursuit of happiness, intimate choice, expression of emotional support, the exercise of spiritual unity, the highest expression of self. It is the most important right in our society.

(I am choking up here)

I interpret the parenthetical comment as his editorializing.

He also wrote this:

Olson: Harm done is significant. Prop 8 harmed individual citizens. Prop 8’s purpose was straightforward but not evil. Took away a right.

[Judge Walker]: But not a right they had had very long, correct? MErely [sic] months prior, these relationships could become marriages.

O: SCOCA didn’t CREATE the right, it RECOGNIZES the right. (nice save, Ted)

Again, interpreting the parenthetical comment as the blogger's editorializing.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Taz, posted 01-12-2010 5:16 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 8 of 759 (542818)
01-13-2010 12:17 AM


More blogging
For those interested in different takes on the trial, here are some more bloggers.

Newsweek blogger Eve Conant, not trying to give the same kind of verbatim reporting, but a more general summary of the events.

The Alliance Defense Fund, which I understand is funding the defense of Prop 8, is twittering.

Prop 8 Trial Tracker is an obviously pro gay marriage site (their slogan is Perry v. Schwarzenegger: Holding the right-wing accountable).


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 10 of 759 (542822)
01-13-2010 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Nuggin
01-13-2010 12:49 AM


Re: Conservatives
I couldn't agree more.

Rachel Maddow, in this clip makes the same point, as does Ted Olson.

The Godstapo has destroyed the Republican party.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Nuggin, posted 01-13-2010 12:49 AM Nuggin has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 12 of 759 (542933)
01-13-2010 10:48 PM


Supreme Court blocks broadcast of trial.
As reported in SCOTUSblog, the Supreme Court has issued an order blocking the broadcasting of the trial. Although the order is not technically final, any further challenges to the order will take longer than the trial is expected to. The Supreme Court's action is based on it's conclusion that the district court failed to follow proper procedures in amending a rule prohibiting broadcasting trial and that irreparable harm would likely result if the ban isn't put into place.

It was a 5-4 per curiam order. Justices Breyer, Stevens, Ginsburg and Sotomayor dissented.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 13 of 759 (548988)
03-03-2010 1:16 AM


Trial transcripts
Testimony has ended and the parties are taking some time to prepare for final argument. Based on a conversation at the end of the trial, I expect that will be scheduled soon, if it hasn't already.

A complete collection of the transcripts of the trial can be found here. I have not yet read the full transcripts, but intend to devote some time to doing so in the next few days or so.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 14 of 759 (572220)
08-04-2010 5:13 PM


California's gay marriage ban struck down
Story here. I haven't had time to read it yet, will comment later.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 17 of 759 (572226)
08-04-2010 7:27 PM


Opinion
Here is the Judge's opinion.

The intervenors, (those defending the Amendment) have asked the Judge to stay the ruling pending appeal. The Judge should rule on that request shortly. I think it likely that he will stay it.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 34 of 759 (572323)
08-05-2010 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Hyroglyphx
08-05-2010 9:30 AM


under my proposal it eliminates the need for certain religious beliefs to take a back seat to the state's wishes

You're going to have to explain to me how religious beliefs are now taking a back seat to the state's wishes, because I'm not aware of such a thing happening.

The way it stands now, pastors and priests are beholden to the state.

Again, please explain how pastors are beholden to the state.

allow them to hold marriage ceremonies for whomever they want.

They already can hold marriage ceremonies for whomever they want.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-05-2010 9:30 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-05-2010 9:45 AM subbie has responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 38 of 759 (572330)
08-05-2010 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
08-05-2010 9:45 AM


but now they are legally obligated to marry them.

What makes you say that?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-05-2010 9:45 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-05-2010 10:18 AM subbie has responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 56 of 759 (572399)
08-05-2010 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Hyroglyphx
08-05-2010 10:18 AM


Reasons such as these are precisely why the Establishment Clause was given -- to avoid things like this.

Actually, it's the Free Exercise Clause that's implicated here. And the Free Exercise Clause is exactly why no member of the clergy will every have to perform a marriage ceremony that goes against their religion.

Why would you even want to give pastors and priests any legal authority anyway?

It's a purely ministerial (no pun intended) function. The real question is why you have a problem with it. People who want a religious ceremony get one, people who don't want one don't have to have one. A church that doesn't want to perform one doesn't have to. Where's the problem?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-05-2010 10:18 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-05-2010 3:05 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 60 of 759 (572408)
08-05-2010 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Hyroglyphx
08-05-2010 2:53 PM


If it's that way then I see no legitimate conflict, in which case, disregard everything I've said thus far

Welcome to the club.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-05-2010 2:53 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 65 of 759 (572425)
08-05-2010 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by dwise1
08-05-2010 4:38 PM


...there are also many churches and clergy who would be more than happy to marry them I'm vaguely aware of some mainstream churches...

I recall seeing a headline yesterday about an Episcopal bishop celebrating the ruling, so you are absolutely correct about some "mainstream" churches welcoming gay marriages with open arms.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by dwise1, posted 08-05-2010 4:38 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 08-05-2010 6:19 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply
 Message 69 by Taz, posted 08-05-2010 11:53 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
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