I wish I knew the magic words to summon you, Rrhain. You don't contribute enough around here. I'm sure you feel like it's the same debates year after year but you're sorely missed. Nobody cuts 'em off at the knees like you do.
I find it disturbing that you guys don't find it disturbing that we have yet to find a state with the majority voting for equal rights.
30% of South Carolinans in a poll last year voted to overturn interracial marriage, 50-some years after Loving v Virginia overturned anti-miscegenation laws. Putting a minority's rights to a popular vote has never not been a mistake.
You guys are the reason why gay rights movement is slowed down to a crawl.
Crawl? Lets look at the stuff that's happened just in the past 5 years:
Legal gay marriage in a bunch of states. Gay inclusion in hate crimes laws. Overturn of DADT, openly gay servicemen and women. Federal benefits recognition of same-sex partners.
and so on. Crawl? I don't get that. The last half-decade has seen incredible progress on the gay rights front, far more than I've ever seen in my life.
All of the mentioned rights gained are useless if the societal attitude remains the same.
No, come on, that's stupid. Obviously legal rights are a pretty substantial tool to be deployed against society's disapproval. Maybe it's true that the local hospital nurses think homosexuality is a perversion. But armed with a legal marriage, they can't stop you from visiting your sick partner or making treatment decisions on his or her behalf.
Maybe your military commander thinks having a "fag" in the unit weakens the whole. But armed with the right of openly gay servicemembers to serve, he can't do anything but judge your performance as a soldier on its own merits.
Santorum can bluster as much as he like, and can shout "fag" until they stomp the floor, but armed with the legal rights gains that we've seen just in the past 5-10 years, it doesn't fucking matter. He can't do anything about it.
That's why legal rights are a hell of a lot more important than "societal attitudes" - they're more powerful. People can have all the bad attitudes they want; armed with a protective suite of legal rights, there's fuck-all they can do about it.
If what you say were true there'd be no more racial discrimination in society, and I know you don't believe that.
You're right, I don't.
But there's less, and that's the result of strong legal protections for racial minorities - both in terms of how those legal protections insulate individuals from being affected society's prejudice to some extent, and the shift in attitudes that comes as a result of top-down signaling that "this is how we are, now."
I just don't agree that the primary project of any equality movement is about mind-controlling society to give up bad attitudes. That can't be the goal because that's impossible. And ultimately, other people's attitudes about you are a lot less important than what kind of power you can avail yourself of - financial power, legal power, military power all outweigh social power.
So it hardly reflects the conditions that exist today as a result of the progress of legal gay rights, now does it?
I blame this on you guys, the liberal commie political correctness police crowd.
What am I supposed to say to this except that you can go fuck yourself, Taz? I sure as hell don't see conservatives/libertarians like you doing jack fucking shit for the rights of women, minorities, poor people, gays/lesbians, or anybody else besides rich white guys.
What the fuck does "liberal commie political correctness police crowd" even fucking mean? You sound like a lunatic. Jesus, do you blame the Illuminati and the Bilderbergs, too?
But nowadays, whenever a bigot says something that expresses his true feelings, you liberal commie political correctness police crowd shout him down and teach him to say the same bigoted things in less offensive words.
Ah, that makes perfect sense! Our vocal opposition to expressions of racial or homophobic animus creates a nurturing environment for racial and homophobic animus. On the other hand, if we followed suit with our conservative brethren, like you, and did absolutely nothing in the face of naked bigotry, bigots will respond to the overwhelming drone of crickets and tumbleweeds by giving up on bigotry - just like they did in the 60's, when Martin Luther King Jr. made his historic "I Have a Dream, or Maybe I Don't, Whatever You White People Want" speech, or when Rosa Parks so proudly and courageously agreed to stand in the back of the bus so a white guy could take her seat.
The more the racist bastards murder and beat the desegregationists, the more mainstream society became in favor of desegregation and eventually equal rights.
Oh, I see. So when you invoked Tyra Hunter before, that wasn't an example of homophobic animus leading to a regrettable death, that was actually an incredible victory in the campaign for gay rights and the way it's supposed to work, in your view. The exact same way Matthew Shepard set out to get himself dragged to death by a pair of Wyoming cowboys so that Moises Kaufmann could write the Laramie Project.
This is why the gay rights movement is slow down to a crawl.
Because gay men and women aren't throwing themselves onto the bayonets of their enemies wholesale?
That's right, gays - unless you're being herded onto boxcars, you're not winning.
By the way, my opinion isn't popular among my gay friends either.
Wow, imagine that - your gay friends aren't mouthbreathing fucking idiots. I'm sure it never would have occurred to you that they know more about how to achieve equality than you do, right?
Stop saying things like "it's ok to disagree" or "we respect your religious beliefs".
I've never said that, and I doubt you'll find too many gay rights activists who have, either, except as a mealy-mouthed concession to politeness on TV or something. LOL, did you think they actually meant it?
Somebody has religious beliefs against legal equality for homosexuals? I don't give a shit, they can have their say and rights advocates can have theirs, and then they'll use whatever legal mechanisms are at their disposal to win. Courts, legislatures - at least a couple of states now have gay marriage as a result of laws, not rulings - anything. Why shouldn't they?
That sure beats being all respectful of their beliefs.
But it pales in comparison to the benefits of legal rights.