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Author Topic:   Where did the matter and energy come from?
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 188 of 357 (604840)
02-15-2011 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 12:35 PM


A "just right" universe! is not this universe.
John 10:10 writes:
In John Gribbin’s review of Brian Greene's book "The Hidden Reality" in the WSJ, the review states there are two possibilities for why we live in a "just right" universe with a "just right" gravity. Using suits as an analogy, "either the suit has been specifically tailored for the client — made to measure — or he has visited a large store with an array of suits in all possible sizes, choosing the one right for him off the peg."
The review goes on to say, "the best interpretation of the laws of physics as we understand them is that we live in an off-the-peg universe," yet gives no rational reasons why this is the best interpretation of the laws of physics!
I find this statement astounding and without scientific merit. Would the laws of physics somehow work differently in a "tailor-made universe" than they would in an similar "off-the-peg universe?" The only universe that we can truly come to know and understand with some scientific certainty is the one we live in which has many other scientific constants that seem to be tailor-made just for man's existence. To favor a belief in a vast array of universes in order to come up with a tailor-made universe ignores the obvious better interpretation that only a divine Tailor could make such a tailor-made universe as we live in.
But as you said, science rejects this conclusion, as do most at this forum.
Blessings to those who know our Divine Tailor and to those who do not.
Yet the more we look the less we find that is "just right".
Perhaps you can point to examples of things that are "just right" for humans and we can look and see if you are correct.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 12:35 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 1:34 PM jar has replied
 Message 198 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 7:39 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 193 of 357 (604846)
02-15-2011 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 1:34 PM


Re: A "just right" universe! is this universe!
John 10:10 writes:
My reply was to a Believer in our Divine Tailor.
To those who choose not to believe,
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Which is of course, just word salad and not evidence of much at all. It is also, of course, just another example of quotemining the Bible and taking things out of context, of misrepresentation.
And of course, it does not address the issue I raised:
quote:
Yet the more we look the less we find that is "just right".
Perhaps you can point to examples of things that are "just right" for humans and we can look and see if you are correct.
So again I ask, can you point to examples of things that are "just right" for humans so that we can test your assertions?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 1:34 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 200 of 357 (604900)
02-15-2011 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 7:39 PM


Re: A "just right" universe! is this universe.
John 10:10 writes:
As is explained in "The Hidden Reality," if the force of gravity were stronger than it is in our universe, but all other properties remained the same, stars would have to burn more fiercely to hold themselves up against the pull of gravity. They would use up their fuel more quickly and burn out in a few million years, not allowing time for life forms like us to evolve (not that I believe life forms on earth evolved to begin with) on planets orbiting those stars. So why should gravity, and the other properties of our universe, be "just right" for us to exist?
Why not read the book for yourself and find out about all the other "just right" properties that this unbeliever explains that are necessary for us to exist?
What do you mean just right?
How much stronger would it have to be to make a difference such that they burn out in a few million years?
What makes you think humans are any different than any other life?
How do you vary gravity without changing other factors?
Do you really not see how utterly stupid your interpretation of what it says is?
Edited by jar, : fix syntax

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by John 10:10, posted 02-15-2011 7:39 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by John 10:10, posted 02-16-2011 1:02 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 205 of 357 (604978)
02-16-2011 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by John 10:10
02-16-2011 1:02 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
The quote was from John Gribbin's review of physicist Brian Greene's book "The Hidden Reality," not my quote.
If you have a problem with his explanation of the "just right" properties this unbeliever explains are necessary for us to exist, you could look at this list of constants:
Constants of Physics and Mathematics
Either way you want to roll the dice, our Tailor-made universe/galaxy/solar system is unique with "just right" constants necessary for there to be life on earth as we know it.
If you want to believe in "other life" out there somewhere that is somehow the same as ours, show us the science that proves with reasonable accuracy that life exists anywhere else in our universe?
PS - Please don't show us the recent studies that are finding potential alien planets that are orbiting stars. Finding potential alien planets and actually showing life exists on these planets are two different things.
More total irrelevances?
The fact that we exist is of no more relevance to the way the universe exists than the fact that water fills a puddle.
It is also unrelated to anything I posted. My point is that YOU are misusing John Gribbin's explanation.
We are a product of the universe we live in, the universe was not created to suit us.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by John 10:10, posted 02-16-2011 1:02 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 9:36 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 211 of 357 (605145)
02-17-2011 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 9:36 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
We are a product of the universe we live in, the universe was not created to suit us.
And the science that shows to a high degree of accuracy that the universe was "not created" by a Divine Tailor to suit us is __________ ?
Gribbin/Greene are the ones that misuse the laws of physics by implying they somehow work differently in a Tailor-made universe than in an off-the-peg universe.
Well, look around. Almost all of the universe is unfit for human habitation.
Your Divine Tailor created a suit that simply doesn't fit the client. The REAL Divine would have done better.
Edited by jar, : lost link somehow, put back in.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 9:36 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:29 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 219 of 357 (605159)
02-17-2011 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 10:29 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
We are a product of the universe we live in, the universe was not created to suit us.
And the science that shows to a high degree of accuracy that the universe was "not created" by a Divine Tailor to suit us is __________ ?
Gribbin/Greene are the ones that misuse the laws of physics by implying they somehow work differently in a Tailor-made universe than in an off-the-peg universe.
Well, look around. Almost all of the universe is unfit for human habitation.
Your Divine Tailor created a suit that simply doesn't fit the client. The REAL Divine would have done better.
Here we have a universe suit that perfectly fits the earth client, and because the rest of the universe seems to be unfit for human habitation, you are telling us a REAL Divine Tailor would have done better!
There are two truths that I know:
There is a Tailor God, and I am not.
Since you could have done better, let's see what you can do, not just opine.
Stop misrepresenting what I say.
Most of the Universe is NOT suited for humans. If your Divine Tailor created the Universe, why did she create one where almost all of it does not fit humans?
As I pointed out in Message 188:
quote:
Yet the more we look the less we find that is "just right".
Perhaps you can point to examples of things that are "just right" for humans and we can look and see if you are correct.
and in Message 193:
quote:
So again I ask, can you point to examples of things that are "just right" for humans so that we can test your assertions?
and in Message 200:
quote:
What do you mean just right?
How much stronger would it have to be to make a difference such that they burn out in a few million years?
What makes you think humans are any different than any other life?
How do you vary gravity without changing other factors?
Do you really not see how utterly stupid your interpretation of what it says is?
If you want I will gladly continue, but even if we look just at the Earth, most of it is not "just right" for humans which is why we built houses, heaters, air conditioners, warm clothing, scuba gear, hats, sunglasses, bifocals. And we still can't live in many parts of the earth.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:29 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:54 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 224 of 357 (605165)
02-17-2011 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 10:54 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
You are the one who said:
quote:
The REAL Divine would have done better.
How am I misrepresenting you when I ask you to show us how you would have done better?
The rest of your post is just a red herring! No amount of "just right" constants would ever convince you that only a Divine Tailor could have created our just right solar system where life does exist.
I never claimed I could do better.
Do we build houses, heaters, air conditioners, warm clothing, scuba gear, hats, sunglasses, bifocals.
Edited by jar, : try to get an answer to points ignored

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 10:54 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:18 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 231 of 357 (605199)
02-17-2011 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 4:14 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
Straggler writes:
J10 writes:
Here we have a universe suit that perfectly fits the earth client, and because the rest of the universe seems to be unfit for human habitation, you are telling us a REAL Divine Tailor would have done better!
From the science writer, and Pulitzer Prize winner, John McPhee.
"Spread out your arms to represent the 4.6 billion years the Earth has existed. Run your eye all along one arm and to the wrist at the end of the other to get to the start of the Cambrian period, 544 million years ago. The greater Permian extinction of 250 million years ago — when 96 per cent of marine species and three quarters of terrestrial ones died out — is about where the fingers begin. The whole of the Cenozoic era — the last 65 million years is in the fingerprint and with a single stroke with a medium-grained nailfile you could eradicate human history
Let's hope that there is no catastrophic equivalent of that single stroke with a nailfile in this supposedly perfectly designed universe.
Ignore the truth of the REAL Divine Tailor who says He will create a new heaven and a new earth to your own destruction (Rev 20:15 - 21:1).
But I'm sure John the Apostle never won any Pulitzer prizes for his scientific endeavors.
Of course the Apostle John has absolutely nothing to do with Revelation and Revelation is a recording of failed prophecy from over 1500 years ago.
And as usual, you still fail to respond to either the topic itself or any of the issues raised related to your posts and have nothing to offer except empty threats.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:14 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 232 of 357 (605200)
02-17-2011 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 4:18 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
John 10:10 writes:
You are the one who said:
quote:
The REAL Divine would have done better.
How am I misrepresenting you when I ask you to show us how you would have done better?
The rest of your post is just a red herring! No amount of "just right" constants would ever convince you that only a Divine Tailor could have created our just right solar system where life does exist.
I never claimed I could do better.
Do we build houses, heaters, air conditioners, warm clothing, scuba gear, hats, sunglasses, bifocals.
So what would you have done better that this REAL Divine Tailor you don't believe in?
I am smart enough to understand that the Universe is not created to suit us and that you only mock and blaspheme GOD and the Holy Spirit.
And once again, I never claimed I would do anything differently. That is as expected from you, just misrepresentation.
The issue is whether or not this Universe is "just right" for humans.
Do we build houses, heaters, air conditioners, warm clothing, scuba gear, hats, sunglasses, bifocals?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:18 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:52 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 236 of 357 (605211)
02-17-2011 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 4:52 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
I am smart enough to understand that the Universe is not created to suit us and that you only mock and blaspheme GOD and the Holy Spirit.
WOW! How am I blaspheming GOD and the Holy Spirit by saying God crerated the universe to suit us as a habitable place for us to live in?
It is called Hubris as well, thinking GOD creates for YOU, that humans are somehow the purpose of the Universe.
But yet again, I notice that you fail to address the issues raised.
The issue is whether or not this Universe is "just right" for humans.
Do we build houses, heaters, air conditioners, warm clothing, scuba gear, hats, sunglasses, bifocals?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by John 10:10, posted 02-17-2011 4:52 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by John 10:10, posted 02-18-2011 11:23 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 244 of 357 (605289)
02-18-2011 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by John 10:10
02-18-2011 11:23 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
John 10:10 writes:
jar writes:
I am smart enough to understand that the Universe is not created to suit us and that you only mock and blaspheme GOD and the Holy Spirit.
WOW! How am I blaspheming GOD and the Holy Spirit by saying God crerated the universe to suit us as a habitable place for us to live in?
It is called Hubris as well, thinking GOD creates for YOU, that humans are somehow the purpose of the Universe.
But yet again, I notice that you fail to address the issues raised.
The issue is whether or not this Universe is "just right" for humans.
Do we build houses, heaters, air conditioners, warm clothing, scuba gear, hats, sunglasses, bifocals?
It is hubris to not believe God created the universe so that He could give breath to people who live on the earth.
quote:
Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it. (Isa 42:5)
Yes, we build all kinds of things with the wisdom and creativeness that God gives to man. These man-made things do not come about by chance or accident, nor did God's Tailor-made universe.
Do you even know what the term hubris means?
Have you ever really read the Bible?
It is Hubris to think that you are important enough to have GOD create a universe just for you.
And if, as you admit, we do have to change the universe to make it just right for us, it makes your position look even sillier.
The facts are:
almost all of the universe is not "just right" for humans.
almost all of the earth is not "just right" for humans.
GOD is not some hireling that creates just for humans.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by John 10:10, posted 02-18-2011 11:23 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 254 of 357 (605688)
02-21-2011 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by John 10:10
02-21-2011 3:22 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
Catholic Scientist writes:
You can live in this old one if you like, but I was referring to the new heavenly bodies God's family will receive when He creates a new heavens and a new earth.
Oh, I get it.
Excuse me for mistaking you as staying in the context of planetary travel.
But what does that have to do with the topic? And why are you avoiding discussion of it? I did ask you a direct question.
Do you have any intention of debating your claims?
Since you said that 99.999% of the universe would kill us instantly if we tried to live out there somewhere, it seems obvious that a Divine Tailor has made the 0.001% called earth just right (I believe the % is much much higher than that) with an earth revolving around a just right sun at a just right distance with just right ingredients necessary for man's existance. But no amount of debating would ever convince you of this truth.
Then you have a very silly idea of what "just right" means.
The sun is not "just right" and in fact varies constantly in just about every possible measurement.
The earth is not at the "just right" distance from the sun, and in fact varies by over three million miles every year.
The earth does not have the "just right" ingredients for life and in fact has many ingredients that will kill living things.
You have been asked time after time to support your assertions and have consistently failed to do so.
It appears that you cannot even do simple math as well. If you think that the earth or even the solar system makes up .001% of even this galaxy, you are profoundly ignorant. And this galaxy is only one of billions of galaxies out there.
So once again, as before, where is your evidence of this so called "just right" universe?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by John 10:10, posted 02-21-2011 3:22 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by John 10:10, posted 02-23-2011 2:16 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 260 of 357 (606045)
02-23-2011 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by John 10:10
02-23-2011 2:16 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
John 10:10 writes:
The earth is in the "just right" eliptical orbit around the sun that enables us to have seasons. If placed in an larger or smaller eliptical orbit, the seasons would be either too hot or too cold. Where else in the Solar System could there be life? There are estimates that planets at distances between 0.84 and 1.7 AU could sustain life. That range includes the Earth (1.0 AU) and Mars (1.5 AU) but not Venus (0.7 AU). Venus today has such a giant greenhouse effect that its surface temperature is 470 degrees Centigrade - a bit on the high side for life. Mars is now very cold (on average -48 degrees Centigrade) but there has been flowing water on it in the past. Unless you think you can live reasonably in +470 C or - 48 C temperatures, the earth seems to be "just right" for most of the earth's inhabitants.
The earth has enough "just right" ingredients necessary for man's existance, then God gives us wisdom to know the difference between the good ingredients and the bad ones. (Some seem to love the bad ingredients more than the good ones, to their own destruction.)
The 0.001% was Catholic Scientist's math number, not mine. As I said, my % would have been much much higher.
More utter nonsense and just plain misrepresentation.
Let's see you support your math.
And the "Just Right" elliptical orbit is simply one of many possible orbits, is not significant and has almost nothing to do with the seasons.
When you post silly word salad like "The earth has enough "just right" ingredients necessary for man's existance [sic], then God gives us wisdom to know the difference between the good ingredients and the bad ones." you make a mockery out of the term "just right" and of God.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by John 10:10, posted 02-23-2011 2:16 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 273 of 357 (606304)
02-24-2011 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by John 10:10
02-24-2011 4:31 PM


Re: Both orbit around the sun and tilt combined produce the earth's seasons
John 10:10 writes:
I corrected my error concering % of the universe that is unfit for life as we know it, but some did not catch this. I meant much much larger in the smaller direction; i.e., the % of the universe that is unfit for life as we know it is much much smaller than 0.001%.
And as usual, you are still wrong. The percentage of the Universe that is unfit for life is closer to 100% than 0.001%; far more like 99.999999...9%

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by John 10:10, posted 02-24-2011 4:31 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 340 of 357 (644275)
12-16-2011 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by Portillo
12-16-2011 5:02 PM


Well, kinda.
The matter and energy that makes up this universe didn't exist.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Portillo, posted 12-16-2011 5:02 PM Portillo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 01-20-2012 12:04 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
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