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Author Topic:   Where did the matter and energy come from?
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 314 of 357 (641228)
11-18-2011 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
01-12-2010 10:20 AM


First:
1. Which universe are you talking about - a finite or infinite one? If the latter, the question is a moot one. The matter and everything was always existing.
2. Your question can only refer to a finite universe, else it makes no sense - because it says once the universe did not exist. Further, it agrees that at one time matter did not exist - else why ask such a question?
3. The answer is quite simple. An external force which is not limited to the universe must have done-it. We have no scientific or logical alternatives here.
4. Matter and space is being newly created everywhere and at all times: the universe is expanding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 01-12-2010 10:20 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Larni, posted 11-18-2011 8:33 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 318 of 357 (641258)
11-18-2011 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by Larni
11-18-2011 8:33 AM


quote:
Well, you see, there is no evidence for an external force so no, it is not accurate to say 'must have done it'.
Of course there is evidence - and of the absolute kind. The science of cause and effect leaves no question of it; the absence of any other possibility - incumbent here, makes the premise of an external, precedent force one with no alternatives applying.
Thus far, the only response has been it is not possible to prove a negative. This is jargon. The premise of a causefor a manifest effect [a universe] is hardly a negative - it is scientifically incumbent to prove an alternative; the cause factor remains with no alternatives.
quote:
Matter and space are not being created, space is expanding.
Here we go again - jargon. Please explain how something can expand, with a compounding acceleration, hormoniously in all directions, where there was no space and matter before?The universe is enlarging.
IMHO, one possibility is that the matter possesses traits and attributes which are able to react to a command or directive; because it does not expand normally - like here on earth. Its like a war ship approaching the shores and laying paths for tanks to roll on; those paths are not self generating but subsequent to an external command.
Science is antithetical to random.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Larni, posted 11-18-2011 8:33 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by Larni, posted 11-18-2011 9:31 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 320 of 357 (641267)
11-18-2011 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by Larni
11-18-2011 9:31 AM


quote:
Of course there is evidence - and of the absolute kind.
Until you present this 'evidence' I can't really comment on it, can I?
There is evidence. The notion of a car appearing on Mars does not mean there is no car maker. Unless we also find some intelligent non-human car makers, the car and car maker stands. That's where its at. Its not aligned with proving a negative; instead its aligned with no disproof of a legitimate positive.
quote:
Thus far, the only response has been it is not possible to prove a negative. This is jargon.
If this is the case it will be easy for you to prove we have not been visited by aliens.
There is no reason to believe in aliens - there is no such evidence for 15 Billion years in the known universe. Nor does this align with negating a causative factor for a manifest universe. A complexity cannot be the result of a random - and still remain as science.
quote:
Please explain how something can expand, with a compounding acceleration, hormoniously in all directions, where there was no space and matter before?
Imagine a ruler made of rubber. Stretch it lengthwise. Observe the inches notation. The more it is stretched, the bigger the spaces are between to increments. Does that make it easier for you to understand?
A definitive use-by date applies in your example; not to mention the rubber is clearly becoming rarer in density - iow, a transfer of matter is occuring, as opposed to new matter emerging.
quote:
IMHO, one possibility is that the matter possesses traits and attributes which are able to react to a command or directive;
So for you ideas to work we need a magician (your god) and a universe with properties that allow it to be affected by the magician's thoughts and desires?
not for me, but for any measure of science. When the cause factor is negated - science goes out the window.
quote:
You did not think that one through, did you?
You did not. I know about slight of hand casino science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Larni, posted 11-18-2011 9:31 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Larni, posted 11-18-2011 10:30 AM IamJoseph has not replied
 Message 323 by Admin, posted 11-18-2011 1:01 PM IamJoseph has not replied

  
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