Military Guns for Jesus

I read this yesterday, expecting there to have already been a topic here about it. U.S. Soldiers issued weapon sights with secret bible verses inscribedI probably wouldn't have bothered posting, but yesterday at shift turnover at work, I went to smoke a cigarette, only to come back to 2 of my co-workers talking about it (one of whom is a devout christian). I immediately jumped into the convo as I had been anticipating such a discussion to arise at some point. Mr. Bible boy said that it did not harm anything and that such inscriptions weren't hurting anyone. I told him that it was a form of indoctrination, we would now be seen as being on a religious crusade to save all the blasphemous Muslims, and that it is a violation of the seperation of church and state.He recanted by saying that the military purchases weapon sights off the shelf....EHHH wrong, bible boy. There is/was a 660 million dollar, multi year contract.So, his, as is many other christians I have heard reference the subject, take on this is that OBVIOUSLY, christianity should just be the default religion in these cases. "Why not? It doesn't hurt anyone".What are your thoughts on this? Should the U.S. drop the contract? Is it, in fact, a violation of the seperation of church and state?

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Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl SaganFor me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

My thoughts on this are as follows:What would their reaction be if there were koran verses in the sights? They'd scream their lungs out, and wouldn't know how fast they wanted to get rid of these sights and the contract.Why should we react any differently now? A religious verse is a religious verse, whether from the bible, the koran or from anywhere else. They have no place on sights issued to the military of a secular nation.

Just to avoid confusion about this, the items in question are not inscribed in the viewpiece of the sights like subliminal messages, nor are they actual scripture. What they are is, inscribed on the base as model numbers, things like 2COR4:6 and JN8:12 and so on. The reason the company Trijicon uses these as their model numbers is because that is the operating procedure laid out by their deceased founder and former owner, a South African eccentric. Each of the codes references a Bible verse about light, the keyword for gunsights. Other keywords are used for other particular pieces, but these have not come into question yet because of the lower volume and lesser visibility of the model numbers. Gunsights, being detachable, are easier to notice, and the snipers picked up on it and created an easter-egg style legend about it.Does that mean I care? Either way? Hell no. Some soldiers like them though, they say it's interesting that the best gunsights they ever had turn out to be these Jebus ones. Things that make ya go Hmmm ...Edited by Iblis, : dog pound

I actually DID ask him that. Oddly enough, he actually said he wouldn't care because these simple etching aren't going to convert anyone.

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Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl SaganFor me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

Right. However, these inscriptions were marked so as to appear to be part of the serial number: They are good sights because....Trijicon makes ALOT of sights.

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Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl SaganFor me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

Hi Iblis,It really ought to be a small enough thing. It is just a serial number after all. In any ordinary circumstances this wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I certainly don't think it important in terms of separation of church and state.Sadly, the circumstances in Iraq and Afghanistan are far from ordinary.A quick trawl through Islam-oriented message boards turns up plenty of Muslims who are up in arms about this. Take this one for example; Of course, not all Muslims are going to react this way. I think most are just going to sigh and shrug. The problem is that the more extreme elements in Islam are going to tout these guns as proof that the infidels are waging a holy war against Islam.These serial numbers serve no useful purpose and have handed Islamic conspiracy theorists an easy propaganda coup. They should never have been there.Mutate and Survive

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"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

Well, seeing as they aren't really religious verses, just some chapter listings, you'd first have to know what they refer to to even know what they say.The impression I had was that there were actual full written verses on/in the sights.I don't care so much about these. Still, a secular army using these things seems a bit wrong.

Yeah, why are we over there now? Can you tell me?I didn't start actively disagreeing with this war until the W declared victory and still didn't pull the troops out. Once we run out of military objectives we should be withdrawn. We've lost a lot more people fighting the peace than we ever did the war.Why isn't the anti-Bush bringing them home? How come he is planning to waste them by the ton in the desert that killed the Soviet Union instead? Why are soldiers doing law enforcement in the first place?Bring them home.

Because if you left there now, or stopped doing law enforcement, the country would spiral out of control, and who knows what kind of regime would come from that. Maybe it will be Iran times 4. Now, how secure woudl a world with Iran 4.0 be?

Can you be so sure about that? Take what limbaugh and Pat Robertson just said (both christians with a big voice), along with bushie saying that god told him to do it. Now we have military weapons, used by an invading/occupying force. can you still be so sure that this, if not already, won't turn into a holy war? Would you want to be directly involved in a holy war that you were lied to about, if you were a soldier? I was a soldier and NOWHERE did any document or creed or ANYTHING say SHIT about fighting for a mythical creature. I fought for freedom, liberty and the constituion.

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Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl SaganFor me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

As Huntard said, it's so that the place won't descend into a nightmare as soon as they leave. Whether this is a good idea or not isn't really the point of the thread. Any douchebag can declare victory. Actually achieving a meaning and lasting victory is another matter.To be honest though, this isn't really a topic I'm interested in pursuing.Mutate and Survive

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"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

Hi hooah. It already is a holy war as far as Muslim extremists are concerned.On the part of the US, I don't see the country becoming a theocracy just yet. I do think that many Christians do see this as a holy war though, including some in the military.Ultimately it's self defeating. Making it a holy war will ensure that it never ends. I think that Mikey Weinstein and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation are doing good work in combating the overt religiosity that seems to have crept into some units in the US armed forces.Mutate and Survive

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"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

"or stopped doing law enforcement,"??? You mean the part where Amerikan drones shoot up innocent wedding parties? Or storm troop in the middle of the night to shoot children? Or use indescriminate illegal weapons like cluster bombs?"The country would spiral out of control" is a lie that the government and media would like you to believe. I remember Vietnam was also supposed to have imploded after American withdrawal.This "altruism" is surely something nazi germany would have used to keep inside Poland after invading. Or the Russians into Afghanistan. Or Britian into India. Funny, all the invading countries would have you believe they are invading nations for the good of its "poor, backwards, uneducated people". And not get a thing in return. (cough, oil, cough, natural gas, cough, military contracts $$$, cough, strategic control of an area, cough)

Uhm no. When I say "law enforcement" I mean law enforcement, as in police work. I don;t know about these atrocities you're talking about, but if they are perpetrated, I hereby condemn them and say those responsible should be severely punished. Really? You're saying withdrawing would do nothing to destablize these countries at all? It wouldn't give the "terrorists" fighting there any benefit whatsoever? Godwin, you lose. In case you want to continue a serious discussion, here's my answer: Poland didn;t have any type of government like Afghanistan did. Now that they've "tasted freedom" would it not be very cruel for us to leave, and give the "terrorists" a chance to reinstitute a sucky theocracy, with probably even more hatred towards America then before? Oh yes, it's to the USA's benefit of course, I don;t disagree with that. The invasion was driven purely for your benefit alone. Would it be fair to the people there to now abandon them to their fate again?

Umm, no. When speaking of war crimes, Nazi Germany is both an appropriate and "legal" subject. see:
Godwin's law - Wikipedia Oh, c'mon. You gotta be kidding! Then your opinion about this matter cannot be very informed, can it? As in Iraq, it is the Amerikan presence that is CAUSING the people to choose the lesser of two evils, in this case the Taliban. That is why Amerikan forces are now considering to "let" the Taliban be part of the Afghan government. (Why did you put "terrorists" in quotes?) When did that happen? You mean during their last fraudulent elections? Um, let me briefly do a "Rrhain" . . . *[blink]* You didn't just write that did you?
You admit Amerika is there fraudulently, the Afghans surely know this too, and surely hate Amerika for this, yet you are arguing Amerika presence is STABILIZING? Huh?