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Author Topic:   Entropy in Layman's Terms
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 51 (557286)
04-24-2010 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rrhain
01-23-2010 3:33 AM


Unmanaged Energy vs Managed Energy, I E Evolution vs Creation (EvC)
Rrhain writes:
So if we're going to explain it in layman's terms, we have to start with making the point that entropy is a statement about energy. It isn't about "information" or "order" or "disorder."
In short, entropy is the energy in the system that cannot be used for work. Thermodynamics works by moving energy around from one place to another.
Thanks for ititiating this topic, Rrhain and thanks to Admin for promoting it. This so succinctly explains why the Buzsaw Hypothesis relative to 2LoT makes sense relative to ID and work. With ID, there is no energy in the system which cannot be managed so as to be used for work. That is not to say that there is not unmanaged energy in the ID system.
Your assumption, of course is that from a purely natural viewpoint, there is no ID working in the universe. That doesn't appear to be the case when you thoughtfully consider a submicroscopic dot expanding into all of the complexity, order and mass that we observe in the universe.
What we observe relative to your laymen's definition is that aside from management, things do tend towards disorder. If we don't keep up the barn roof via work, it begins to leak and sooner or later the barn collapses into disorder. Whatever is not ID maintained and managed via work tends towards disorder whereas managed energy effects order.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Improve upon the wording of the last phrase and add message title.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rrhain, posted 01-23-2010 3:33 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Son, posted 04-24-2010 9:55 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 25 by Taq, posted 04-24-2010 11:58 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 36 by Rrhain, posted 04-25-2010 9:00 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 51 (557315)
04-24-2010 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Son
04-24-2010 9:55 AM


Comprehending The OP
Son writes:
Did you actually read the thread? What you said had nothing to do with what the participants said. The op you quoted even said that 2Lot wasn't about order, disorder , etc.... so why are you talking about order again?
Obviously, Son, I comprended more from Rrhain's OP than you did from my message. Rrhain's OP relative to 2LoT was (abe: ultimate) disorder, when in fact, what is observed is a long progression of order all the alleged way from a sub-microposcopic dot of disorderly energy to an orderly energetic universe greater than the most powerful telescopes can reach for observation, all attributed to natural and/or random processes by Rrhain, et al.
Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted in context
Edited by Buzsaw, : Add Message Title

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Son, posted 04-24-2010 9:55 AM Son has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by DrJones*, posted 04-24-2010 3:43 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 31 by Son, posted 04-24-2010 3:44 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 51 (557325)
04-24-2010 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Son
04-24-2010 3:44 PM


Re: Comprehending The OP
Son writes:
What I'm saying is that 2lot (as expressed in the op) has nothing to do with order or disorder. The passage you quoted even said it explicitely. So why are you talking about it? Are you actually disagreeing with what 2Lot says?
Rrhain's segment (below) does imply disorder and he goes on to explain what amounts to equalibrium/uniformity and disorder void of management and work (ID). No?
Rrhain's OP writes:
When we reduce the concept of the Second Law and entropy to the phrase, "The universe tends towards disorder," what we mean is that the energy distribution of the universe is tending toward a uniformity. You see, energy transfer depends upon variations in energy states. If everything is the same, then there can be no reaction.
No, I'm not disavowing 2LoT. 2LoT does not rule out the possibility of work relative to the propensity towards enropy. When gas is compressed into a tank, that reversal of entropy is effected by work. When gas is released form the tank, equalibrium is effected via entropy without work relative to the energy inside and outside of the tank after the valve is opened.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Son, posted 04-24-2010 3:44 PM Son has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Son, posted 04-24-2010 5:32 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 51 (557414)
04-25-2010 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Rrhain
04-25-2010 9:00 AM


Rrhain writes:
Which is a direct violation of the Second Law. All physical processes lose energy to entropy. While the processes may be extremely efficient such that this loss is very slow, it can never be eliminated and always takes a finite amount of time which is why your eternal universe is a violation of physics.
Interestingly, you choose to ignore problems with the 1LoT relative to the BB alleged singularity event; problems like no before relative to energy, no outside of in which to expand and no time in which to have happened etc but disallow ID relative to 2LoT. No ID is allowed by your definition but 2LoT does allow for work effected decrease in entropy. The ID PoV calls for enough work to effect the perfect perpetual system, This all has to do with physics. It just that you mine out of physics what suits your PoV.
You assume the right to waive off problems with things like the alleged singularity, all the while disallowing any unknowns relative to the possibility of eternal energy, which in fact, happens to be more compatible to 1LoT than temporal energy. You can't have it both ways. The universe is either eternal or temporal.
There are waived off problems as well with the notion of alleged multiverses; problems with the properties of space. If there was no outside of the alleged singularity expansion of space, you can't have multiverses without space between them, etc.
What I'm saying is that there are unknowns relative to all PoVs. You choose to ingnore your own and harp incessently on ours.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Rrhain, posted 04-25-2010 9:00 AM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Taq, posted 04-25-2010 12:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 40 by Son, posted 04-25-2010 2:18 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 41 by AdminPD, posted 04-25-2010 3:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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