Hello, Stile. Good post.
The only thing I would say is that
human reason seems to be the evaluation-tool, in this matter. That is understandable given that that's all you have to go on as an honest person.
In the bible, Jesus says that the Pharisees only tithe in order to appear to be righteous. But He gives an example of a person that is sinful, with a contrite heart, as being heard by God, rather than the person that does good things. You ask who would Jesus go to, he said, "I come to call sinners to repentance, not to call the righteous" (paraphrase).
I agree with you that good and nice people exist, yet I can still notice, on a spiritual level, by perception, that they are devoid of the love of God.
They are born in the image of God remember, so it is not necessarily the case that they must be immoral, wild animals.
A lot of folk at sites like this will be moral atheists, and you can tell they are straight by perception of the things they say and their good behaviour.
I think "nice people", that has to be thought through a bit more. I think even nice people are ultimately just living their lives as though they are a finite being, between two infinite spaces. There is a kind of selfishness to this that you can sometimes hear in their subjective morality, such as this type of saying;
"well, it's fine as long as there is no harm done, as long as my morals are tolerated".
As thought that is all that counts, the right to live life your own way then die like an insect. That's okay but it's not to live for God, which is a selfless act. "Forget self, and follow me." - Christ.
I think this is what it's all about these days - "let me live in peace, let me get out of life what I want in my own way, let me live then die, I'm not bothering you any!".
Ultimately these are self-motives. Even the nicest people aren't living for God's will, but their own. God's will is selfless because of
sacrifice.
I think it's all to do with defining, "good". Sure, by PEOPLE'S standards there are good people, but are they good by God's standards? Jesus said, "there is only one Who is good, that being God".
Everyone "has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".
Since we live by these sayings, we can't jettison them for convenience. There is a very real theme in the bible that makes it clear that to be reconciled to God, this must be through the righteousness that Christ has won on the cross. So then Christ came to eradicate your sin-debt, however large or small.
Ultimately good people will make nice citizens in the temporary societies we have, but to not build up eternal meaning in your life means that ultimately your life will be vacuous to God. What will you say you done when all is said and done, what did it mean?
"I partied, I got a good job, raised a family, Lord."
Will not the Lord say;, "I could have chimps do that!"
It's hard to explain. When you have the love of God, the self-life is gone. It's temporary. "The world and it's desires are passing away, but He who does the will of God will abide forever."
God isn't interested in temporary activities, He is building a Kingdom, so when your body is dead meat, what will you have to show for your life? Are we living to entertain ourselves? Have we accepted an animal-standard?
Ultimately you have the freewill to just live, be a nice person and die, if that is the general theme of your life I don't think you have much to be afraid of, but the problem is that the, "heart is desperately wicked above all things." We are told in scripture that sin is deceitful, which means that EVEN NICE PEOPLE's morals are governed by their heart's desire,
not a selfless one.
The Kingdom of God is about a spiritual joy that is achieved through selfless acts, but if you are not born again, a selfless act can be irksome, bothersome, energy-consuming, boring. I remember all of these attitudes I had before I was born again, because even though I was nice, ultimately I was just an animal, because my spirit was switched off.
You can only know through experience, what these things mean, which means you must be born again. If I speak nonsense, then nothing will happen to you. But the problem is that God "sees the heart", therefore if He sees you are not genuine, you won't be born again, in all likelihood. You must mean business. It's not a game.
Those folk who think they have converted you because you said a prayer, are foolish. No - God wants the real deal, the real choice. If you say the prayer but don't mean it, nothing will change.
A large part of the problem can be the Christian's ignorance, because although they are well-meaning, they don't seem to be aware of how they are coming across to people. They have this desire to "win people" to God, and they can get carried away with that.
I myself don't try all that much to win people, I just try and show that the life of God is something that is the epitome of morality. In this way I hope that they will make the Christian connection because generally I don't tell them I'm Christian. They must wonder how it can motivate me to do activities that don't give any material reward to me, I think sometimes I can perceive their confusion or surprise because you can literally, "see" they don't have God in their life.
Sorry I really rambled on here Stile, I hope I haven't bored you, but I feel a bit inadequate, it is like trying to explain something without using English. You can only really know what I'm going on about if you also know God.
My conclusion is that God's standard is met in Jesus Christ. That ultimately anyone who goes to God must go through Him.
"I am the way, the truth and the life, no-one comes to the Father except through me." - Christ.
Are there nice people that go to heaven then, without knowing Him? I think if they are very nice, very good, and very ignorant, it will be hard for God to not have His eye on them in some way. I myself HOPE they go there, I would "reason" they do, but ultimately, I am not God my friend, so it does not matter what I think, only He knows the fullness of someone's life.
(Sorry I rambled, I'm not debating, I'm just trying to provide the biblical theology and verses that you might have been looking for)
All the best.
mike
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