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Author Topic:   Is America a Christian Nation?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 5 of 206 (546864)
02-14-2010 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
02-14-2010 8:15 AM


Hi Percy,

Some comments

That quote is from an article in today's New York Times Magazine: How Christian Were the Founders?

That article has a picture titled "Original Image: “‘Declaration of Independence,” by John Trumbull/The Bridgeman Art Library"

Curiously, this is from the actual museum website:

http://www.bridgemanart.com/...20-%20Defining%20Moments.aspx

quote:
Defining Moments
No matter the struggle, the United States has a long history of weathering the storm and coming back stronger than ever. Here is a look at some defining moments in our collective history.

XCF22523 Signing the Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1776 (oil on canvas) by John Trumbull (1756-1843), Yale University Art Gallery, New Haven, CT

And when I search their site for {Original Image: “Declaration of Independence,” by John Trumbull} I get "No results found, Sorry no results were found."

When I search the site for {Declaration of Independence John Trumbull} I get "Your search returned 8 images for Declaration of Independence John Trumbull"

http://www.bridgemanart.com/search.aspx?key=Declaration%2...

With four slightly different images, SSI 82121, XCF 22523 (seen above), XBP 344388 (which appears to be the basis for the "christ" version), and SSI 82119 (a lithograph based on SSI 82121), all showing the flags and drum.

When I search the site for {John Trumbull} I get "Your search returned 45 images for john trumbull"

http://www.bridgemanart.com/search.aspx?key=john%20trumbu...

None of them show a christ image behind the founding fathers.

And when I googled {Original Image: “‘Declaration of Independence,” by John Trumbull/The Bridgeman Art Library } the only reference I found to the first picture is their site and links to it.

Can someone say photoshop? Can someone say phaque? Can someone say HOAX?

It should come as no surprise that the same Texas Board of Education that is rewriting biology books is also rewriting American history books, ...

Some reading for those who are interested:

The Christian Nation Myth, by Farrell Till

quote:
... Many protesters decry these decisions on the grounds that they conflict with the wishes and intents of the "founding fathers."

Such a view of American history is completely contrary to known facts. The primary leaders of the so-called founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists. Deism was a philosophical belief that was widely accepted by the colonial intelligentsia at the time of the American Revolution. Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems and belief in a supreme deity who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws. ...
Fundamentalist Christians are currently working overtime to convince the American public that the founding fathers intended to establish this country on "biblical principles," but history simply does not support their view. The men mentioned above and others who were instrumental in the founding of our nation were in no sense Bible-believing Christians. ...


The American Enlightenment, by Richard Hooker

quote:
The Americans, despite their religious background and relative autonomy (growing less by each passing year), were still intimately tied to the English nation. Developments in England, such as the Glorious Revolution, the new scientific methods, and the rise of Parliamentary government, made their way to the colonies as well. The American Enlightenment, which is generally dated from the Glorious Revolution of 1688, was, however, an uneven affair. In part, it involved the exporting of scientific, social, and political ideas from Britain, but also involved the exporting of radical and marginal ideas, such as the republicanism of the "commonwealthmen." In almost all cases, however, the American Enlightenment did not mean the abandonment of the radical Protestant ideas that originally inspired the settlement of America, but started a long process of secularizing these religious ideas. ...

The most important political theories in the American Enlightenment were derived from John Locke's Two Treatises on Government and the work of English radical political theorists, particularly a radical republican group called the "commonwealthmen." ... However, the political theories of the colonists during the eighteenth century had far more in common with English radicals. Like the radicals, the Americans believed in representation, contractual government, and natural rights. The English radicals, only a minority voice in England, naturally viewed the American colonists as intellectual kin. As a result, English radical thought was distributed in America and American political thought was enthusiastically distributed throughout Britain by the radicals.

Foremost among the English radical thinkers that influenced American political thought were the "commonwealthmen." This group believed that the monarchy should be abolished in favor of a republic governed by a representative government. ...


Also see
http://mises.org/story/1355

quote:
Cato's Letters on Liberty and Property

On November 5, 1720, the first letter from Cato (pseudonym for John Trenchard and Thomas Gordon, honoring Cato the Younger, whose dedication to principles of liberty led him to oppose Julius Caesar) appeared in the London Journal. Many more followed, reflecting the ideas of John Locke, soon making it England's most influential newspaper, and leading to collections of Cato's Letters that were, according to Clinton Rossiter "the most popular, quotable, esteemed source of political ideas in the colonial period."

It is worth revisiting Cato's Letters' devotion to liberty, its central theme, which so powerfully influenced our founding as a nation. Consider some of its memorable insights (in the order of their appearance):

...liberty is the unalienable right of all mankind. All governments, under whatsoever form they are administered, ought to be administered for the good of the society; when they are otherwise administered, they cease to be government, and become usurpations.

True and impartial liberty is therefore the right of every man to pursue the natural, reasonable, and religious dictates of his own mind; to think what he will, to act as he thinks, provided he acts not to the prejudice of another; to spend his own money himself, and lay out the produce of his labor his own way; and to labor for his own pleasure and profits, and not for others who are idle, and would live...by pillaging and oppressing him, and those that are like him...

...civil governments were instituted by men, and for the sake of men...men have a right to expect from them protection and liberty, and to oppose rapine and tyranny wherever they are exercised...


Those are just a few of the quotes in the article, however I picked those as they reflected the wording of the Declaration of Independence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato%27s_Letters

quote:
The Letters were collected and printed as Essays on Liberty, Civil and Religious.[1] A measure of their influence is attested by six editions printed by 1755. A generation later their arguments immensely influenced the ideals of the American Revolution; it is estimated that half the private libraries in the American colonies held bound volumes of Cato's Letters on their shelves.

Nuff said?

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 8 of 206 (546868)
02-14-2010 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Son
02-14-2010 3:03 PM


NY Times was HOAXED
Hi Son,

We'll see if my reply is posted

http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/...14/magazine/14texbooks-t.html#postComment

quote:
Thank you for your submission. Submissions are moderated and generally will be posted if they are on-topic and not abusive.

Moi? abusive? Or are we protecting the gullibles from the truth?

There's another faux picture from the "moral" christians:

Can they really think this fools anyone with half a brain? For the real version see:

http://www.bridgemanart.com/...9c2991dd549dcb98403e32aeda6c2

I think those things should be taught in history though, to avoid the mass brain-washing of children .

As in the real american history? Complete with the influence of the indians on democracy?

http://www.ratical.com/many_worlds/6Nations/FF.html

enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 41 of 206 (547161)
02-16-2010 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Percy
02-16-2010 12:55 PM


The lessons of history
Hi Percy

I think both sides can agree that Thomas Jefferson would definitely not side with those claiming the United States is a Christian nation, but what about other founders such as Washington, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and Benjamin Franklin, among others.

Thomas Paine was also a deist, and along with the commonwealthmen, he was hugely responsible for many of the political thoughts currant at the time of the Declaration of Independence.

There is also little rational doubt that the reference to god in the Declaration of Independence was to the deist concept of a "Natural God" and I think it is safe to say that the christian faith practiced by any of the founding fathers was not a literalist fundamentalist faith. Many seem to have freely mixed deist and christian concepts.

But there is another historical factor here that many people may know, but not really consider important: some of the colonies were originally formed for followers of various (christian) sects to escape persecution in their home countries, persecutions that involve whipping to death, stoning to death, burning to death, hanging, etc. Usually because they were considered heretics or devil worshipers (witches etc) by the predominant religious culture of their homelands.

These people came here to have the freedom to practice their beliefs. Some of these colonies proceeded to establish religious based governments, such as the Puritans in Massachusetts, and it was not long before they too started persecuting others of alternate faiths by whipping them to death, stoning them to death, burning them to death, hinging, etc, because these others were considered heretics or devil worshipers (witches etc) by the predominant religious culture of the colony. Many people fled Massachusetts to Rhode Island and New York to escape religious persecution.

Roger Williams, who established the colony of Rhode Island, is credited with first articulating the concept of separation of church and state.

The founding fathers had both a theoretical basis from the philosophies and political thoughts of the enlightenment and they had the practical lessons of recent history to reinforce them.

The oldest synagogue in the US is in Newport Rhode Island:

http://www.tourosynagogue.org/

quote:
"It [Touro] is not only the oldest Synagogue in America but also one of the oldest symbols of liberty. No better tradition exists than the history of Touro Synagogue's great contribution to the goals of freedom and justice for all." - President John F. Kennedy, September 15, 1963


For over two centuries, the small synagogue standing on top of a hill on a quiet street in the New England seaport community of Newport, R.I., has occupied a unique place in American history -- not only as a part of the American Jewish experience but also as a symbol of religious freedom for all Americans. It is here "that the right of the individual freely and without governmental restraint to follow the dictate of his own conscience in religious worship could be exercised without danger to the state"

... On the second floor, guests may view permanent and changing exhibitions relating to the four-fold mission of the center:

  1. To explain how Newport and the Rhode Island colony became the center of and originating focal points for the concepts of religious liberty, tolerance, and the separation of church and state in colonial America;
  2. To educate the public on the role of the Founding Fathers (i.e.: Washington and Jefferson) as key figures in the dissemination of these concepts by telling the story of Washington’s Letter to the Jews of Newport;
  3. To examine the history of Jews in Colonial and Revolutionary War America;
  4. To explore the history of the Touro Synagogue, the oldest extant synagogue building in the United States, its congregation and its architect Peter Harrison.

Touro Synagogue, built beginning in 1759 and dedicated in 1763 during Chanukah festivities, is the oldest synagogue building in the United States and continues to serve Congregation Jeshuat Israel, first organized in 1658.

The founding fathers did not have far to look to see that religious based governments did not protect the basic human rights of those of alternate beliefs, and there was nothing theoretical about the relationship. They also did not have far to look to see that where religion was kept out of government that these rights were recognized. This was not ancient history to them.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : fix coding

Edited by RAZD, : delete duplicated section

Edited by RAZD, : ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 64 of 206 (547729)
02-22-2010 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Buzsaw
02-21-2010 11:26 PM


Re: Representative Leadership
Hi Buz,

Bottom line: As we the people of the Republic (majority) become more secular, the intent of our Christian oriented founders becomes less relevant.

And the intent of our secular oriented founders becomes more relevant.

Which includes most of them, whether of personal christian orientation or not.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 110 of 206 (652487)
02-13-2012 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by jrchamblee
02-13-2012 8:01 PM


false logic
Hi jrchamberlee

Yes because several of our founding father's were Christians, that is already known as you can research them for your self, I think most of America is Christian, but there is Freedom of religion here so other religion is here to.

Really?

By your logic ...

America is a Deist nation because several of our founding fathers were Deists, that is already known as you can research them for yourself, ... but there is Freedom of Religion here, so other religions are here as well.

or even more telling:

America is a White nation because several of our founding fathers were white, that is already known, as you can research them for yourself, ... (do I really need to go further?)

Please note that Evangelical Christians and Mormonism did not exist back then, so -- again according to your logic -- America is NOT an Evangelical Christian or Mormon nation because none of the founding fathers were Evangelical Christians or Mormons, that is already known, as you can research this for yourself, ... but there it Freedom of Religion here, so other religions are here ... and this now includes Evangelical Christians and Mormons as well as Catholic, Baptist, Protestant, Pentacostal christians, deists, jews, muslims, hindus, atheists, native beliefs, etc etc etc.

More importantly, virtually ALL founding fathers were secularists (meaning they believed that church and state should be separate, to each his own)

Because of the Freedom of Religion, ALL religious beliefs and non-beliefs are treated on an equal level, and individuals have the right and freedom to believe in whatever faith they desire as long as they do not try to force their belief on others. Because of the Freedom of Religion here, there are now more varieties of religions here than existed during the founding of the nation.

Do a majority of Americans now identify themselves as Christian? Yes, however they are divided into several significantly different sects. Thinking that this makes the US a Christian nation is like thinking that white founding fathers and the majority of white people in america make it a white nation ... which is quite curious if we have a black president eh?

Enjoy.

Edited by Zen Deist, : clrty & brevity


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 118 of 206 (652602)
02-14-2012 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by dwise1
02-14-2012 1:27 AM


wall of separation
Hi dwise1, nice post.

I trust that you can see why such Religious Right claims never made any sense to me. Had you ever given it much thought yourself?

And then there is the whole issue of the wall of separation of church and state and who the letter was written to from one of the founding fathers explaining it.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 133 of 206 (659532)
04-16-2012 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by OpticalIllusions
04-16-2012 8:12 AM


Hi once again OpticalIllusions,

Message 126: America and the founding fathers may not be "Christian" but we put "in God we trust" on the money for a reason. ...

And when we look at the time that it was sneaked into being on the money, the way it was implemented, and why those that put it there did it, we see that it was over-reactive knee bending fear of "communism" that was the impetus.

... The founding fathers never said they wanted everyone to be atheist, just that they could worthship their own personal God. ...

Correction: that anyone could believe what they wanted when it came to religion, and have the right to do so without persecution.

... Notice how it doesn't say "in Gods we trust". None of the founding fathers believed in old disproven pagan Gods.

See above for who when and why. The who when and why had nothing to do with the founding fathers, but with weak-kneed politicians and bureaucrats.

Many of the founding fathers were deists, where god is more of a generic term.

The fact remains that is *IS* there on our money ...

Which is a testament to what weak-kneed, communist fearing ignorant people can do. Certainly it was not put there due to democratic consensus.

Obviously America is christian enough for the money system to work.

Not obvious at all. The god in question could be Vishnu.

What gives money value is the willingness of people to exchange goods for it.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(4)
Message 145 of 206 (663703)
05-26-2012 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Jzyehoshua
05-26-2012 5:57 AM


religious freedom
Hi again Jzyehoshua

Just a quick note:

Like the Declaration of Independence, it references a Creator as the basis for inalienable rights consistent with ...

... deist beliefs of the time.

You seem to be cherry-picking out references to Christianity and then claiming that this is all that applies to the founding fathers opinions.

The founding fathers were well experienced with religious persecution, both in England and again here in the Colonies, that were due to having a state religion.

When you look at the whole picture you see that the nation was founded with the principle that each and every belief would be allowed with no persecution, including christian.

That does not make it a christian nation, but a nation that allows christians to believe their faith without persecution or second-class status, just as it allows jews, deists, native americans etc to believe their faiths without persecution or second-class status.

There were a lot of christians that campaigned to make it a state religion, and you can quote them till the cows come home. the fact remains that the government laid out in the constitution is secular, without specific reference to any religion, nor without any religious litmus test required for any office:

quote:
Article. VI.

Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.


Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 162 of 206 (663911)
05-27-2012 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Jzyehoshua
05-26-2012 8:06 PM


Re: Madison And Jefferson
Hi Jzyehoshua,

My point was that Jefferson, the same guy who created the term and concept of a "wall of separation" was at the same time writing (in U.S. Law mind you) about how Almighty God is Lord of both mind and body yet didn't coerce others into belief, and this is the basis for U.S. religious freedom.

Just curious, have you read the Jefferson Bible?

Obviously if he wanted to stop Christians from presenting views on God in government, he wouldn't have used such religious language himself in referencing "Almighty God".

Would this not also apply to deism, or in fact to any religion known and practiced at that time?

Is not the issue that no one religion would be given supremacy, but and and all beliefs would be allowed without bias?

The founding fathers included christians, but that does not mean that they in any way intended to create a christian nation: the evidence in the Constitution says otherwise.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Evangelical Humanists, posted 05-27-2012 7:53 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 164 of 206 (663923)
05-27-2012 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Evangelical Humanists
05-27-2012 7:53 PM


Re: Madison And Jefferson
Hi Evangelical Humanists and welcome to the fray.

It was created (the US) as a secular nation.

Indeed, as rather explicitly stated in Article. VI. Clause 3:

quote:
Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

bold for emphasis.

... and that is the only place religion is mentioned in the main body of the constitution.

Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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Rebel American Zen Deist
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to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 169 of 206 (664017)
05-28-2012 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by NoNukes
05-28-2012 3:51 PM


Re: Madison And Jefferson
Hi NoNukes, I agree

I find discussing things with you somewhat frustrating because you have a problem supporting your propositions with making on point, fact based arguments ...

... and that are related to the topic issues. I've had the same problem on the age correlations thread.

Perhaps what we are dealing with is strong confirmation bias, a condition that leads one to the impression that some cherry-picked piece of evidence is all that is necessary while ignoring the rest of the picture that doesn't fit the beliefs.

quote:
Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses.[Note 1][1] People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. For example, in reading about gun control, people usually prefer sources that affirm their existing attitudes. They also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 170 of 206 (664037)
05-28-2012 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Jzyehoshua
05-26-2012 9:32 PM


and then there is Roger Williams ...
Hi Jzyehoshua,

Well, as far as being a Christian nation, Penn's government: ...

And yet this is just one of the colonies, so if you are going to look at the colonies you have to look at all of them, not just the one/s that meet your beliefs and opinions.

For instance Roger Williams and Providence Plantation (later Rhode Island)

quote:
Roger Williams (c. 1603 – between January and March 1683) was an English Protestant theologian who was an early proponent of religious freedom and the separation of church and state. In 1636, he began the colony of Providence Plantation, which provided a refuge for religious minorities. Williams started the first Baptist church in America, the First Baptist Church of Providence. He was a student of Native American languages and an advocate for fair dealings with Native Americans. Williams was arguably the very first abolitionist in North America, having organized the first attempt to ban slavery in any of the original thirteen colonies.

He knew first hand what happens when there is a state religion -- not from england, but from Massachusetts

quote:
Religion, 1599-1683

... His views on religion and government quickly embroiled him in disputes with the Massachusetts authorities in Salem and Boston. He upset the elders by denouncing the Massachusetts Bay charter, which allowed the confiscation of Native American lands without compensation and the punishment of purely religious transgressions by the civil officials. Both of those practices offended Williams’ sensibilities.

In 1635, he was expelled from the church and placed under an order of expulsion from the colony. He was granted time to tidy up his affairs, but continued his agitation. Exasperated officials decided to send him back to England, but Williams departed from Massachusetts on his own accord and spent three months living with local Indians. In 1636, he and a number of followers established the settlement of Providence on Narragansett Bay, a colony notable for the fact that the Indians were paid for the title to their lands. Williams founded the first Baptist Church in America, but soon withdrew and thereafter referred to himself as a "seeker," meaning basically a nondenominational Christian in search of spiritual truth.

One of Williams’ beliefs had caused particular grief among the authorities. He argued that an individual Christian would know when he was saved, but could not know about the salvation of others. Therefore, it was senseless to require a religious qualification for voting. In essence, Williams was calling for the complete separation of church and state, a position that undercut the authority of the church and civic leaders.

Williams obtained a royal charter for Rhode Island in 1644, an action that demonstrated a practical side to his character. He continued to believe that the king did not hold title to Indian lands, but realized that his colony would be more secure from English opponents if he held a charter.

Under Williams' influence, Rhode Island became a haven for those who suffered from religious persecution, including Jews and Quakers.


Note that he was lucky not to be stoned or burned at the stake as other people were in the Plymouth and Salem colonies.

Because of the religious freedom that he insisted on, the oldest synagogue in North America is located in Newport RI.

And we should also remember that not all the colonies were founded by religious groups looking for religious freedom in the new land, there were also merchant colonies.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
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Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 9:32 PM Jzyehoshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-28-2012 7:48 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 173 of 206 (664055)
05-28-2012 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Jzyehoshua
05-28-2012 7:48 PM


Re: and then there is Roger Williams ... and the Iroquois
Jzyehoshua

Fair enough. Just show me what other colonies had Congressional governing systems with checks and balances, freedom of religion, fair elections, and trial by jury, and I'll be happy to take a look at them.

None of which are found in any bible as far as I know. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Not coming from the bible means not from christian sources but other sources, even if then espoused by christian leaders.

quote:
... Williams founded the first Baptist Church in America, but soon withdrew and thereafter referred to himself as a "seeker," meaning basically a nondenominational Christian in search of spiritual truth. ...

... then wouldn't it just be an additional proof, along with Penn, that America's origins, along with the origins of religious freedom, were Christian in nature?

No, because his views were in conflict with the religious views regarding the running of government.

You just had a lot of Christians but they also had concepts from other sources than Christianity (a Christian doing math does not make math Christian in origin does it?), and they were mixed with other people, and in Roger Williams view, especially with the Native Indians. Benjamin Franklin also so profound value in Native Indian government and its procedures and processes.

The Iroquois in particular are known to have influenced many founding fathers on their way of governments.

http://www.ratical.com/many_worlds/6Nations/FF.html

quote:
... well-organized polities governed by a system that one contemporary of Franklin's, Cadwallader Colden, wrote had "outdone the Romans." Colden was writing of a social and political system so old that the immigrant Europeans knew nothing of its origins -- a federal union of five (and later six) Indian nations that had put into practice concepts of popular participation and natural rights that the European savants had thus far only theorized. The Iroquoian system, expressed through its constitution, "The Great Law of Peace," rested on assumptions foreign to the monarchies of Europe: it regarded leaders as servants of the people, rather than their masters, and made provisions for the leaders' impeachment for errant behavior. The Iroquois' law and custom upheld freedom of expression in political and religious matters, and it forbade the unauthorized entry of homes. It provided for political participation by women and the relatively equitable distribution of wealth. These distinctly democratic tendencies sound familiar in light of subsequent American political history -- yet few people today (other than American Indians and students of their heritage) know that a republic existed on our soil before anyone here had ever heard of John Locke, or Cato, the Magna Charta, Rousseau, Franklin, or Jefferson.

I suggest you read the whole thing if you are truly interested in the source of concepts used in the Constitution and the founding of America - the "great experiment" - in ways that differed from European Christians, kings, etc.

These concepts are basic to the fabric of America, and they did not come from any type of Christianity I know of, nor from any European source I know of.

Roger Williams lived with the local Native Americans here before founding his colony, and only got the colony charter for political reasons, not because he felt it gave him any additional authority. Interesting person (and not all a saint either, but none of the founding fathers were eh?).

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-28-2012 7:48 PM Jzyehoshua has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 191 of 206 (664123)
05-29-2012 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Jzyehoshua
05-28-2012 9:49 PM


what pledge
Hi Jzyehoshua

Just a small quibble or two:

... they want to remove all mention of God from the Pledge of Allegiance, ...

(1) The mention of god was added to the original pledge, as was mention of America:

quote:
The Pledge of Allegiance was written in August 1892 by the socialist minister Francis Bellamy (1855-1931). It was originally published in The Youth's Companion on September 8, 1892. Bellamy had hoped that the pledge would be used by citizens in any country.

In its original form it read:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Shortly thereafter, the pledge was begun with the right hand over the heart, and after reciting "to the Flag," the arm was extended toward the Flag, palm-down.


Isn't that like a fascist salute?

quote:
The Pledge of Allegiance, A Short History

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]


Curiously I see nothing wrong with the original wording, except the omission of equality ... if you need a pledge ...

(2) The founding fathers did not need a pledge. Pledges are needed by people that don't like independent thinking, imho.

abe ...

I knew this had been discussed before and a little searching found:

[qs]Message 19 of the constitutionality of using public funds to promote religion thread:

This does not alter the fact that they supported a government of the people by the people for the people

Read "The Christian Nation Myth" by Farrel Till
http://www.infidels.org/...ary/modern/farrell_till/myth.html

Note in particular that the constitutional convention voted on whether to include god in the constitution and that it was defeated.

Read how Jefferson and Washington and many other founders -- specifically the ones that were the movers and shakers of creating this country -- were not christian or were christian and had no problem with a separation between government by people and religions of all stripes.[/quote]

Another good read.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : abe info


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-28-2012 9:49 PM Jzyehoshua has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Coragyps, posted 05-29-2012 9:31 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
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